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Did Martin Luther remain 'mostly' roman catholic?

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  • Did Martin Luther remain 'mostly' roman catholic?

    When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.

    After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
    He kept infant baptism
    He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
    He kept the fancy robes
    One person on earth over the whole shootin match.
    He kept all sorts of stuff.

    What did he NOT keep?
    MUCH of mariology
    Indulgences
    A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
    Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.

    What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it?

    Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end?

    WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself.
    NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

    So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Morefish View Post
    When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.

    After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
    He kept infant baptism
    He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
    He kept the fancy robes
    One person on earth over the whole shootin match.
    He kept all sorts of stuff.

    What did he NOT keep?
    MUCH of mariology
    Indulgences
    A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
    Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.

    What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it?

    Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end?

    WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself.
    NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

    So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
    Luther had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church he wanted to correct it's errors that were caused by the Pope. When I was a kid I learned the Apostles Creed with the line the Holy Catholic Church. I believe in that Church. I have no problem thinking of myself as a Catholic. I am however, not Roman Catholic.
    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thekla View Post

      Originally posted by Morefish View Post
      When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.

      After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
      He kept infant baptism
      He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
      He kept the fancy robes
      One person on earth over the whole shootin match.
      He kept all sorts of stuff.

      What did he NOT keep?
      MUCH of mariology
      Indulgences
      A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
      Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.

      What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it?

      Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end?

      WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself.
      NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

      So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
      Luther had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church he wanted to correct it's errors that were caused by the Pope. When I was a kid I learned the Apostles Creed with the line the Holy Catholic Church. I believe in that Church. I have no problem thinking of myself as a Catholic. I am however, not Roman Catholic.
      Aren't you lutheran? If so, which synod? When I was a member of the LCMS lutherans, the feeling towards the rcc was animosity, mostly.

      Do you consider the lutheran church (your own synod) to be 'THE catholic' religion? Do you consider the rcc to be a CHRISTIAN body?

      Just curious. . . Or will you simply 'not answer' and 'ignore' as you didn't answer the questions addressed in the OP?
      God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

      I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Morefish View Post

        Aren't you lutheran? If so, which synod? When I was a member of the LCMS lutherans, the feeling towards the rcc was animosity, mostly.

        Do you consider the lutheran church (your own synod) to be 'THE catholic' religion? Do you consider the rcc to be a CHRISTIAN body?

        Just curious. . . Or will you simply 'not answer' and 'ignore' as you didn't answer the questions addressed in the OP?
        I was raised in a Swedish Synod back in the 50's. I transfefred to the LCMS in 1978. Everyone who believes in Christ are Catholic. I think that most of the people who are RC are indeed Christian. I think they have fewer errors in their church than you do.

        After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more. We corrected the mass. We still have it.
        He kept infant baptism
        He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
        He kept the fancy robes
        Get real, you said you were raised Lutheran. Yes, our pastors wear robes but they are not comparable to the ones worn in Rome.
        One person on earth over the whole shootin match. Huh?
        He kept all sorts of stuff. Indeed he did, Melancthon did much communication with the Orthodox Church and if we could have joined it without getting killed, we might have done that.

        What did he NOT keep?
        MUCH of mariology
        That is obvious.
        Indulgences That is what started him falling into the reformation.
        A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
        Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.
        You will have to explain this to me.

        What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it? It is not important to us. God calls his Pastors

        Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end? No, it makes us Catholic, not Roman any more than the Orthodox are.

        WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself. Because we believe in God doing the work, not us.We take no credit for our salvation.

        NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

        So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic? Because Luther believed in the church that had survived for 1500 years. The Pope took too much power.
        As I said we are very close to the Orthodox Church which split with the RC in the 400's because of the Pope. Your church has given credit to man not to God. You spit in the face of the Trinity when you were rebaptized. I think your church is less Christian than the Romans.
        Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

        “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
        but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


        Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thekla View Post

          One person on earth over the whole shootin match. Huh?
          I think he's accusing us of having a pope.
          aka: Black Boot the ****-protestant, pope lover, BJs Cohort, unregenerate Christian, that Lutheran, Quoter of RCC doctrines and dogmas nearly verbatim.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thekla replied
            06-13-18, 04:06 PM
            Originally posted by Morefish View Post
            Aren't you lutheran? If so, which synod? When I was a member of the LCMS lutherans, the feeling towards the rcc was animosity, mostly.

            Do you consider the lutheran church (your own synod) to be 'THE catholic' religion? Do you consider the rcc to be a CHRISTIAN body?

            Just curious. . . Or will you simply 'not answer' and 'ignore' as you didn't answer the questions addressed in the OP?
            I was raised in a Swedish Synod back in the 50's. I transfefred to the LCMS in 1978. Everyone who believes in Christ are Catholic. I think that most of the people who are RC are indeed Christian. I think they have fewer errors in their church than you do.

            [You are free to think whatever you wish. AT LEAST we are NOT taught to pray to NOT-gods such as peter, paul, mary or other NOT-gods as the rcc teaches THEIR folks to do.]

            Get real, you said you were raised Lutheran.
            that is a BLATANT FALSEHOOD. I have NEVER said I was raised anything. I was a member of a Missouri Synod lutheran church for several years AS AN ADULT!

            Yes, our pastors wear robes but they are not comparable to the ones worn in Rome.


            [I have seen some pretty ornate ones that would compare VERY WELL with the ones worn in roman churches.]

            One person on earth over the whole shootin match. Huh?
            He kept all sorts of stuff. Indeed he did, Melancthon did much communication with the Orthodox Church and if we could have joined it without getting killed, we might have done that.


            What did he NOT keep?
            MUCH of mariology That is obvious.
            Indulgences That is what started him falling into the reformation.
            A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
            Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION. You will have to explain this to me.
            What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it? It is not important to us. God calls his Pastors

            [It is important to the rcc. THEY disagree with how YOU DO THAT.]

            Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end? No, it makes us Catholic, not Roman any more than the Orthodox are.

            [So you ADMIT luther remained mostly rcc in his beliefs and practices. AND YOU? Where do YOU draw the line?]

            WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself. Because we believe in God doing the work, not us.We take no credit for our salvation.

            NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.


            So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
            Because Luther believed in the church that had survived for 1500 years.

            [It appears luther ALSO believed the church that Jesus built was a social/religious/political/financial oligarchy

            The Pope took too much power.

            [The English thought that too. . .THEIR 'pope' is the archbishop of Canterberry]\ They are just as daft as martin luther was.]

            As I said we are very close to the Orthodox Church which split with the RC in the 400's because of the Pope.

            [According to both the orthodox AND Wikipedia, that year was 1050 NOT 'the 400's. Do you ALSO KISS ICONS, bow to your pastor, NOT shake hands with him because his hands must be 'pure' for handling an 'eucharist?

            Your church has given credit to man not to God. You spit in the face of the Trinity when you were rebaptized. I think your church is less Christian than the Romans.
            NOW YOU KNOW that is pure trashmouth. I am a member of a CONSERVATIVE BAPTIST CHURCH. You had best FIND AT LEAST ONE REFERENCE in which we have EVER given credit to man and not to GOD. Otherwise, you KNOW what that makes YOU. . .

            AND YOU ALSO KNOW that GOD knows my heart, YOU do not, and HE APPROVES of my motives in being baptized as an ADULT, and my being privileged to baptize my 3 sons and my wife.

            No 'spitting' involved.

            Do YOU spit when you baptize? Why?
            God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

            I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

            Comment


            • #7

              Thekla replied
              06-13-18, 04:06 PM
              Originally posted by Morefish View Post
              Aren't you lutheran? If so, which synod? When I was a member of the LCMS lutherans, the feeling towards the rcc was animosity, mostly.

              Do you consider the lutheran church (your own synod) to be 'THE catholic' religion? Do you consider the rcc to be a CHRISTIAN body?

              Just curious. . . Or will you simply 'not answer' and 'ignore' as you didn't answer the questions addressed in the OP?


              I was raised in a Swedish Synod back in the 50's. I transfefred to the LCMS in 1978. Everyone who believes in Christ are Catholic. I think that most of the people who are RC are indeed Christian. I think they have fewer errors in their church than you do.

              [You are free to think whatever you wish. AT LEAST we are NOT taught to pray to NOT-gods such as peter, paul, mary or other NOT-gods as the rcc teaches THEIR folks to do.]

              We don't pray to Saints but I understand why the RC's do.They believe that it says that the saints are praying for us in the book of Revelation They believe that the saints can hear us. God knows their hearts as well as he knows ours.

              Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, 31 that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints, 32 so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and be refreshed in your company. 33 May the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


              Get real, you said you were raised Lutheran.


              that is a BLATANT FALSEHOOD. I have NEVER said I was raised anything. I was a member of a Missouri Synod lutheran church for several years AS AN ADULT!

              Sorry, I must have remembered wrong.

              Yes, our pastors wear robes but they are not comparable to the ones worn in Rome.


              [I have seen some pretty ornate ones that would compare VERY WELL with the ones worn in roman churches.]

              I haven't seen any ornate ones. Either way, if you read how the Jewish Priests dressed our pastors are plain. See Exodus 28. Their clothes are to glorify God not them.

              One person on earth over the whole shootin match. Huh?
              He kept all sorts of stuff. Indeed he did, Melancthon did much communication with the Orthodox Church and if we could have joined it without getting killed, we might have done that.


              What did he NOT keep?
              MUCH of mariology That is obvious.
              Indulgences That is what started him falling into the reformation.
              A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
              Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION. You will have to explain this to me.


              What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it? It is not important to us. God calls his Pastors

              [It is important to the rcc. THEY disagree with how YOU DO THAT.] Well yeah, they excommunicated all Lutherans.

              Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end? No, it makes us Catholic, not Roman any more than the Orthodox are.

              [So you ADMIT luther remained mostly rcc in his beliefs and practices. AND YOU? Where do YOU draw the line?] Not baptizing infants and not believing in Communion.

              WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself. Because we believe in God doing the work, not us.We take no credit for our salvation.

              NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.


              So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?


              Because Luther believed in the church that had survived for 1500 years.

              [It appears luther ALSO believed the church that Jesus built was a social/religious/political/financial oligarchy

              The Pope took too much power.

              [The English thought that too. . .THEIR 'pope' is the archbishop of Canterberry]\ They are just as daft as martin luther was.]

              As I said we are very close to the Orthodox Church which split with the RC in the 400's because of the Pope.

              [According to both the orthodox AND Wikipedia, that year was 1050 NOT 'the 400's. Do you ALSO KISS ICONS, bow to your pastor, NOT shake hands with him because his hands must be 'pure' for handling an 'eucharist?

              Sorry I got the date wrong. I knew about the split in 1050 but I was talking about the fight they had when the Nicene Creed was written.

              Your church has given credit to man not to God. You spit in the face of the Trinity when you were rebaptized. I think your church is less Christian than the Romans.


              NOW YOU KNOW that is pure trashmouth. I am a member of a CONSERVATIVE BAPTIST CHURCH. You had best FIND AT LEAST ONE REFERENCE in which we have EVER given credit to man and not to GOD. Otherwise, you KNOW what that makes YOU. . .

              You think that Baptism is based on man not God's work. You do not accept Communion.

              AND YOU ALSO KNOW that GOD knows my heart, YOU do not, and HE APPROVES of my motives in being baptized as an ADULT, and my being privileged to baptize my 3 sons and my wife.

              No 'spitting' involved.

              Yes, you insult the Holy Spirit when you are baptized more than once. His work is pure and holy. If you fail the baptism is still good because it is His work not yours.

              Do YOU spit when you baptize? Why?

              Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

              “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
              but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


              Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.

                After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
                He kept infant baptism
                He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
                He kept the fancy robes
                One person on earth over the whole shootin match.
                He kept all sorts of stuff.

                What did he NOT keep?
                MUCH of mariology
                Indulgences
                A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
                Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.

                What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it?

                Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end?

                WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself.
                NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

                So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
                Most Lutheran pastors wear simple robes most Sundays--white with a soft rope cinqtures, and the stole which reflects the color of the liturgical year. They might wear fancier ones for weddings, or Christmas or Easter. And it also depends upon the individual Pastor's taste.

                And we discussed this robe thing on another board last year sometime. I put down a link to a minister who explains why our ministers wear labs or robes. I hope you saw that, because I do not think you ever responded to that and the thread came to an end.

                But I would much prefer seeing Ministers wearing robes or albs in church, than see rubber chickens, or Daffy Duck.

                Most of what you have listed is that wonderful Greek word, "adiophora--neitber commanded nor forbidden." Luther was conservative. He did not want to do away with everything, just the false doctrines and corruption he saw in the RCC.
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  We discussed some of this on the APO board months ago. I addressed here why ministers wear robes in our church:

                  https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...y-bother/page2

                  Post no. 25. There is a link in it that takes you to a minister who answers that question. I hope you read it.

                  Oh, well here is the same link:

                  http://www.zionbeecher.net/news/2012...cial-clothing/
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post


                    Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                    When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.

                    After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
                    He kept infant baptism
                    He kept 'most' of their understanding of 'eucharist.'
                    He kept the fancy robes
                    One person on earth over the whole shootin match.
                    He kept all sorts of stuff.

                    What did he NOT keep?
                    MUCH of mariology
                    Indulgences
                    A LITTLE of 'church authority', placing most of it on the Bible and the 'synod's' interpretations of it.
                    Total rule by a religious ORGANIZATION.

                    What about 'apostolic lineage' for leaders? Did he keep it, or 'drop' it?

                    Wouldn't that make him 'mostly roman catholic' to the end?

                    WHY is there such a large 'gap' between the beliefs of most BAPTIST-types and the lutherans? BOTH subscribe to letting the BIBLE speak for itself.
                    NEITHER are CLOSELY ruled by groups above the local congregation. BOTH claim the Bible to be the WORD OF GOD, literally God-breathed.

                    So WHY the difference unless luther remained 'mostly roman catholic?
                    Most Lutheran pastors wear simple robes most Sundays--white with a soft rope cinqtures, and the stole which reflects the color of the liturgical year. They might wear fancier ones for weddings, or Christmas or Easter. And it also depends upon the individual Pastor's taste.

                    [Is there EVEN ONE EXAMPLE, COMMAND, or INSTRUCTION in CHRIST'S NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH for the pastor to wear ANY SPECIAL CLOTHING AT ALL? BETCHA CAN'T FIND ONE. . .Why not let him preach in sweat pants and sandals? After all, JESUS preached in HIS everyday clothing and sandals. . .didn't He?]

                    And we discussed this robe thing on another board last year sometime. I put down a link to a minister who explains why our ministers wear labs or robes. I hope you saw that, because I do not think you ever responded to that and the thread came to an end.

                    [ I don't think I ever saw it.

                    But I would much prefer seeing Ministers wearing robes or albs in church, than see rubber chickens, or Daffy Duck.

                    [AND without your own pastor's bad jokes too? ? ? have rubber ducks or daffy duck ever been regular parts of YOUR service? NOT MINE. Someone's idea of a joke? Yep. Almost as bad as some of the jokes I have heard from lutheran pulpits, back when I was a member.]

                    Most of what you have listed is that wonderful Greek word, "adiophora--neitber commanded nor forbidden." Luther was conservative. He did not want to do away with everything, just the false doctrines and corruption he saw in the RCC.
                    Like the 'adoration' of mary, the prayers to her and other NOT-gods? No, luther never kept those things. . .

                    Of course he cherry-picked and chose what HE THOUGHT AT THE TIME to reject. The rest it seems, he never thought out or rejected.
                    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                      Like the 'adoration' of mary, the prayers to her and other NOT-gods? No, luther never kept those things. . .

                      Of course he cherry-picked and chose what HE THOUGHT AT THE TIME to reject. The rest it seems, he never thought out or rejected.
                      Of course he never kept those things--they are highly unscriptural and involve worshiping and giving glory to a mere human that only belongs to God. the Bible clearly says we are to worship the Lord our God and Him only shall we serve.

                      But show us where the Bible says it's a sin for a minister to wear a white robe, with a tie around the waist ,and a colored stole, and to follow a liturgical church year. Oh, and to have Bible verses make up the pericope, which the sermon is usually based upon. I cannot find anything in the Bible that prohibits such a thing.

                      But if you can have Daffy Duck and rubber chickens in your church services, I don't think God would mind if we have ministers wearing robes and stoles color-coded to the color that represents the liturgical year. Nor do I think He would mind if we follow a liturgical year.

                      And Luther got rid of the worst aspect of RCC doctrine--salvation by grace plus our works, with doing penance and acquiring indulgences, to help one get out of purgatory sooner...oh wait, he got rid of that, too.

                      And while we have church services every week we no longer call them "mass." In Catholicism they always have communion during Mass and they believe that when the priest prays over the wafer and wine, he brings down Jesus from heaven to inhabit the bread and wine--this was on the Catholic board many years ago when I use to hang out there a lot--so that the bread and wine are changed completely to Jesus' body and blood. We do not hold to that belief. While we believe that Jesus' true body and blood come to be present somehow in, with, and under the bread and wine, they also remain bread and wine. We don't understand how that can be, but we accept it as a joyful mystery. We call that the Real Presence and leave it at that.

                      I wonder what Luther would have though of rubber chickens and Daffy Duck at a church service...
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                        Of course he never kept those things--they are highly unscriptural and involve worshiping and giving glory to a mere human that only belongs to God. the Bible clearly says we are to worship the Lord our God and Him only shall we serve.

                        [Of course, wearing fancy robes (NOT the common clothing worn by 'common' folks, BUT INSTEAD 'SPECIAL clothing worn by the elite leaders of your congregation ONLY) 'don't' glorify the man and make others think more highly of him than they ought. . .]

                        But show us where the Bible says it's a sin for a minister to wear a white robe, with a tie around the waist ,and a colored stole, and to follow a liturgical church year.

                        [RIGHT AFTER YOU show us where the Bible says he can't wear purple and pink polka-dotted pajamas to preach in . . .AND RIGHT AFTER YOU show us ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE IN CHRIST'S NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH where ANY 'speshul' or 'different' clothing is worn by the leaders.

                        JESUS preached in HIS EVERYDAY GARB. DO YOU THINK your pastor is better than Jesus?


                        Oh, and to have Bible verses make up the pericope, which the sermon is usually based upon.

                        Oh, you mean the 'springboard' from which your pastor launches off to a sermon on EDIT Divisive
                        LAUNCH POINT, huh?

                        I cannot find anything in the Bible that prohibits such a thing.
                        [NOR CAN YOU FIND ANYTHING IN THE BIBLE that makes your pastor play 'dress-up.' NOR can you find ANYTHING IN THE BIBLE prohibiting your pastor from preaching in spandex pants and a tall, pointy hat with a purple CROSS on it.

                        But if you can have Daffy Duck and rubber chickens in your church services,

                        [AS I have pointed out to you, someone played a JOKE. WHAT ABOUT YOUR OWN PASTOR"S BAD JOKES?]

                        I don't think God would mind if we have ministers wearing robes and stoles color-coded to the color that represents the liturgical year. Nor do I think He would mind if we follow a liturgical year.

                        [Do you think God would mind if your pastor wore a HUGE HAT with a HUGE CROSS sewn to it? After all if it represents CHRIST'S CROSS, do you think GOD WOULD MIND?

                        EDIT DIVISIVE

                        And Luther got rid of the worst aspect of RCC doctrine--salvation by grace plus our works, with doing penance and acquiring indulgences, to help one get out of purgatory sooner...oh wait, he got rid of that, too.
                        EDIT Inappropriate, off topic

                        And while we have church services every week we no longer call them "mass." In Catholicism they always have communion during Mass and they believe that when the priest prays over the wafer and wine, he brings down Jesus from heaven to inhabit the bread and wine--this was on the Catholic board many years ago when I use to hang out there a lot--so that the bread and wine are changed completely to Jesus' body and blood

                        [That IS pretty much what they believe.

                        We do not hold to that belief. While we believe that Jesus' true body and blood come to be present somehow in, with, and under the bread and wine, they also remain bread and wine. We don't understand how that can be, but we accept it as a joyful mystery.

                        [Perhaps He is in, with, and under the bread and wine, just as He is with, in, and around MY HEART and the hearts of ALL CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE. No difference at all.]

                        We call that the Real Presence and leave it at that.

                        Jesus is in, with, and UNDER my heart ALWAYS. . .HE IS REAL and HE IS ALWAYS PRESENT.]

                        I wonder what Luther would have though of rubber chickens and Daffy Duck at a church service...
                        I wonder what he would have thought of your pastor's BAD JOKES from the pulpit. . .
                        Last edited by Mod8; 06-18-18, 10:31 AM. Reason: divisive, off topic
                        God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                        I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Actually, my pastor told some pretty good jokes, to illustrate a point in his sermons. My pastor was my husband.

                          So, rubber chickens and Daddy Duck jokes and ladies wearing two piece bathing suits are okay in your church, but a pastor wearing a simple white robe with a soft rope tie around the waist, with a colored stole (yoke) over his shoulders is not?

                          Did you read the link and the explanation as to why our ministers wear robes?

                          And I feel sorry for you, if you do not know the difference between a minister wearing the simple robes as I described, and wearing Spandex pants with a huge cross on the butt.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                            Actually, my pastor told some pretty good jokes, to illustrate a point in his sermons. My pastor was my husband.

                            So, rubber chickens and Daddy Duck jokes and ladies wearing two piece bathing suits are okay in your church, but a pastor wearing a simple white robe with a soft rope tie around the waist, with a colored stole (yoke) over his shoulders is not?

                            Did you read the link and the explanation as to why our ministers wear robes?

                            And I feel sorry for you, if you do not know the difference between a minister wearing the simple robes as I described, and wearing Spandex pants with a huge cross on the butt.
                            Sorry, that should have been "Daffy Duck". I was on my tablet and it autocorrected to Daddy and I didn't catch it in time.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                              When Luther parted ways with rome, didn't he take much of the rcc with him, but reject ONLY SOME of it.
                              No, he kept was common (catholic or universal) among Christians and also kept adiaphora, that which is neither commanded nor prohibited, as adiaphora.

                              Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                              After all, he kept the liturgy but didn't consider it to be the 'mass' any more.
                              That is a false claim for multiple reasons, for example, a liturgy is not, "the [rcc] liturgy," and the words "liturgy" and "mass" are not synonyms. (It is true that the sixteenth century Roman Catholic explanation of the mass is that it is synonymous with the liturgy of the Greek speaking Roman church and that there may be an overlap in range depending on who is speaking and the context.) If anyone wants to read a more detailed discussion of this then it can be done so here: http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgcon....php#article24. That link begins at the article regarding the Mass in the Augsburg Confession and at the bottom of the article there are links to the Roman Catholic response to that article in the Papal Confutatio, and also the Evangelical response to the Papal Confutatio.

                              Luther and Lutherans can speak of the mass (a cognate derived from the Hebrew language) in a positive sense as it is a communion liturgy (All of the historic Christian churches with an orthodox Christology have communion liturgies.) but they categorically reject the abuses of the Roman Catholic church with regard to the Lord’s Supper. For example, the following is from the article on the Holy Supper from the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, “109] 2. We likewise reject and condemn all other papistic abuses of this Sacrament, as the abomination of the sacrifice of the mass for the living and dead.”
                              Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                              Peace,
                              BJ -Bear
                              VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                              WELS

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