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The "servant"

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  • The "servant"

    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--how are you relating any of that to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

    Luke 12:42-46 ---King James Version (KJV)
    42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
    43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
    45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
    46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    IOW--they were judged according to works--and appointed a place with the unbelievers, because of those works--and that--a "servant". In fact--it was the same servant this addresses--the difference being the works.
    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    Nice try, ...
    It's not a "try"--but, a testimony.

    How do the Lutherans fit such doctrines within their theology?


  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--how are you relating any of that to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

    Luke 12:42-46 ---King James Version (KJV)
    42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
    43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
    45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
    46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    IOW--they were judged according to works--and appointed a place with the unbelievers, because of those works--and that--a "servant". In fact--it was the same servant this addresses--the difference being the works.
    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post Nice try, ...
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It's not a "try"--but, a testimony.

    How do the Lutherans fit such doctrines within their theology?
    To the Lutherans on this board--would you address this concern?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--how are you relating any of that to the testimony of Jesus Christ?

      Luke 12:42-46 ---King James Version (KJV)
      42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
      43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
      44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
      45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
      46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

      IOW--they were judged according to works--and appointed a place with the unbelievers, because of those works--and that--a "servant". In fact--it was the same servant this addresses--the difference being the works.
      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post Nice try, ...
      It's not a "try"--but, a testimony.

      How do the Lutherans fit such doctrines within their theology?

      Would the Lutherans like to address this?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



        It's not a "try"--but, a testimony.

        How do the Lutherans fit such doctrines within their theology?
        Martin Luther’s Definition of Faith

        by Martin Luther

        Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.
        Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.
        Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

        An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546
        Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith from DR. MARTIN LUTHER’S VERMISCHTE DEUTS

        Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

        “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
        but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


        Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thekla View Post
          Martin Luther’s Definition of Faith

          by Martin Luther

          Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.
          The Biblical writers had a different perspective:

          James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
          18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
          19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
          21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
          22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
          23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
          24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
          25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
          26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

          Dead faith was never living nor saving faith. Nor is faith alone.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            The Biblical writers had a different perspective:

            James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
            18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
            19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
            21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
            26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

            Dead faith was never living nor saving faith. Nor is faith alone.
            So you want to keep your faith in you not Christ.
            Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

            “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
            but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


            Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Thekla View Post

              So you want to keep your faith in you not Christ.
              Apparently so. Of course, Hebrews 11 says BY WHAT Abe was able to obey God and do as He commanded. Works righteous cults always seem to forget that. They believe that:

              works + faith = grace + salvation.

              Whereas, we who are biblical, believe the Bible teaches this: grace through faith = salvation + works.

              And that is what James is talking about here. A salvation/faith that does NOT lead to doing good works is ultimately dead and NOT true faith, for a true, living faith will ALWAYS express itself in doing good works, done out of love, not compulsion. As Paul wrote so eloquently here:

              For by grace you are SAVED; through faith--and that not of yourselves; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD--and NOT by works, so no one may boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS for good works, which He has prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them."
              I don't think I have EVER seen anyone in works righteous cults quote these verses. No, they concentrate ONLY on the verses about works, ripping them out of their God-given context. As a friend of mine has as one of his signatures: "A verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time." I might add, quoting some verses that seem on the surface to agree with one's a priori, while ignoring others that put them into proper perspective is also a pretext 100% of the time--as we see a certain poster prove over and over again on here.

              Of course, those in works righteous cults never seem to quote the James verse that says "if anyone keeps the whole law but stumbles in one point, he is guilty of ALL of it." Why is that, do you think, Thekla?
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post The Biblical writers had a different perspective:

                James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                Dead faith was never living nor saving faith. Nor is faith alone.
                Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                So you want to keep your faith in you not Christ.
                If I had faith in myself--then I would do my works.

                Those who have faith in Jesus Christ--do His works.


                Matthew 20 ---King James Version (KJV)

                1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
                2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
                3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
                4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
                5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
                6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
                7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
                8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
                9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
                10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
                11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
                12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
                13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
                14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
                15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

                Matthew 16:27 ---King James Version (KJV)
                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?




                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  Whereas, we who are biblical, believe the Bible teaches this: grace through faith = salvation + works.
                  Could you show us any occasion where God extended His grace unto life independent of their works?

                  2 John 9 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                    If I had faith in myself--then I would do my works.

                    Those who have faith in Jesus Christ--do His works.


                    Matthew 20 ---King James Version (KJV)

                    1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
                    2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
                    3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
                    4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
                    5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
                    6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
                    7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
                    8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
                    9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
                    10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
                    11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
                    12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
                    13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
                    14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
                    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

                    Matthew 16:27 ---King James Version (KJV)
                    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                    So--how do we fit that into faith alone theology?



                    Works which we do IN salvation, not FOR salvation. Works which we do BECAUSE we are saved not to GET saved--which would be selfish, to do good works to save ourselves; "so no one may boast."

                    Go to Luke 7:50 and tell us what Jesus said saved the woman. See if He added works to what saved her.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      Works which we do IN salvation, not FOR salvation.
                      So--were these saved before they did God's work--and received of His salvational grace of the remission of sins?

                      Acts 2:38-- King James Version (KJV)
                      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



                      Comment

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