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Everlasting priesthood

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    Sorry but we aren't discussing faith alone. That isn't what your OP is about. It is about the "everlasting priesthood." That is what I have been discussing with you. I will not be diverted. And we have discussed it time without number on here, like here:

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...lutheran/page2

    Now, kindly deal with my verses about the priesthood.
    Fair enough--here are your verses:

    Hebrews 8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    A Better Ministry


    8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister [a]in the sanctuary and [b]in the true [c]tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses [d]was warned by God when he was about to erect the [e]tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. A New Covenant


    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

    “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
    [f]When I will effect a new covenant
    With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
    9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
    On the day when I took them by the hand
    To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
    For they did not continue in My covenant,
    And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
    10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    After those days, says the Lord:
    [g]I will put My laws into their minds,
    And I will write them on their hearts.
    And I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people.
    11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
    And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    For all will know Me,
    From [h]the least to the greatest of them.
    12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
    And I will remember their sins no more.”

    13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.


    So, the NEW and BETTER covenant is NOT like the old one. The priesthood of all believers is NOT like the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood at all. They offered up animal sacrifices; the priesthood of all believers offers up SPIRITUAL sacrifices, in prayers, praise, and thanksgiving. And Jesus, of the tribe of Judah, not Levi, is our great High Priest. So, ergo, there has been a change in priesthood; so there is also a change in "law."
    What has any of this to do with proving the reality of the "priesthood of all believers"? You talk about the New Covenant--pronounce the reality of the "priesthood of all believers"--and close it with a change in priesthood.

    How does a change in priesthood somehow prove the "priesthood of all believers"?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

      Fair enough--here are your verses:

      [B]

      What has any of this to do with proving the reality of the "priesthood of all believers"? You talk about the New Covenant--pronounce the reality of the "priesthood of all believers"--and close it with a change in priesthood.

      How does a change in priesthood somehow prove the "priesthood of all believers"?
      You don't get it, do you? There has been a change in priesthood since Jesus is our great High Priest and of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. And since there was a change in priesthood, there has been a change in law regarding it. John was writing to the churches--the whole churches,not just the men in them--in Asia Minor and he was telling them that JESUS had made US a kingdom; priests, to God the Father. Who is not included in "us"?

      And Hebrews tells us the old covenant was growing obsolete and was ready to disappear--which it did when the temple was destroyed a few years after Hebrews was written, along with the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood. That priesthood is null and void, fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord and His sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Thus the NEW Covenant is BETTER than the old one, for it is built upon better promises and upon the blood of the eternal Lamb of God and not on mere animals.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

      Comment


      • #18
        b ump
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          b ump
          The Lutheran Faith is False

          This is in reciprocation to your false posts on the Mormonism board. So I'm taking this to the appropriate forum.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by oceancoast View Post

            The Lutheran Faith is False

            This is in reciprocation to your false posts on the Mormonism board. So I'm taking this to the appropriate forum.
            Prove it. Or at least attempt to provide some evidence.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #21

              Originally posted by oceancoast View Post


              The Lutheran Faith is False
              Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post

              Prove it. Or at least attempt to provide some evidence.

              “Therefore if they say to you;
              ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms
              - tabernacles
              do not believe it. (Matthew 24:26)


              For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup,
              you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
              (1 Co 11:26).

              'until He comes' cannot mean that He is present as the god-wafer

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                Prove it. Or at least attempt to provide some evidence.
                James 2:24 ---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

                Straight from the "epistle of straw"--as Luther would have it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  You don't get it, do you? There has been a change in priesthood since Jesus is our great High Priest and of the tribe of Judah, not Levi.
                  No one is arguing that. Again--how does that convert into all believers holding the priesthood?

                  And since there was a change in priesthood, there has been a change in law regarding it. John was writing to the churches--the whole churches,not just the men in them--in Asia Minor and he was telling them that JESUS had made US a kingdom; priests, to God the Father. Who is not included in "us"?
                  The priesthood includes all in that --the priests administered to certain rites which affected the salvation of all--not that all held the priesthood. All are partakers of the priesthood through that principle in the NT. How does that mean all believers hold the priesthood?

                  The difference between the OT and the NT is not that all believers are priesthood holders--but that the priesthood administers to the ordinances, are for all men now--not just the natural seed of Abraham. There is a change of covenant, and a change of priesthood--but where do we find a "priesthood of all believers"--in the sense all hold the priesthood?

                  And Hebrews tells us the old covenant was growing obsolete and was ready to disappear--which it did when the temple was destroyed a few years after Hebrews was written, along with the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood. That priesthood is null and void, fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord and His sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Thus the NEW Covenant is BETTER than the old one, for it is built upon better promises and upon the blood of the eternal Lamb of God and not on mere animals.
                  Again--how does any of that prove the "priesthood of all believers"--as the Lutherans teach it? It's a priesthood of all believers in the sense it is for the benefit of all believers--but not that all believers hold the priesthood.









                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    No one is arguing that. Again--how does that convert into all believers holding the priesthood?



                    The priesthood includes all in that --the priests administered to certain rites which affected the salvation of all--not that all held the priesthood. All are partakers of the priesthood through that principle in the NT. How does that mean all believers hold the priesthood?

                    The difference between the OT and the NT is not that all believers are priesthood holders--but that the priesthood administers to the ordinances, are for all men now--not just the natural seed of Abraham. There is a change of covenant, and a change of priesthood--but where do we find a "priesthood of all believers"--in the sense all hold the priesthood?



                    Again--how does any of that prove the "priesthood of all believers"--as the Lutherans teach it? It's a priesthood of all believers in the sense it is for the benefit of all believers--but not that all believers hold the priesthood.








                    I told you how. Jesus HAS MADE US a kingdom, priests to God the Father. John wrote that under divine inspiration. John was writing to all believers in the 7 churches in Asia Minor, and included himself as well. Who is not included in "us." ?

                    And the main differences in the NEW priesthood are that it is for ALL believers and they offer up spiritual gifts, and not burnt offerings. And the NT priesthood is in the blood of Jesus Christ and not in the blood of mere animals. Therefore, it is NOT LIKE the old covenant and the old priesthood. It is NEW.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      I told you how. Jesus HAS MADE US a kingdom, priests to God the Father. John wrote that under divine inspiration. John was writing to all believers in the 7 churches in Asia Minor, and included himself as well. Who is not included in "us." ?
                      Again----a kingdom of priests was what we find in the OT testimony:

                      Exodus 19:5-6--- King James Version (KJV)
                      5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
                      6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

                      So--who did that exclude? All of Israel's believers were included--but not as actual holders of the priesthood.

                      Where do we find the "priesthood of all believers" in the OT--as the Lutherans preach it?

                      A "kingdom of priests" in the fact the priests administered to all of the believers of the Israelites, but not that all held the priesthood.

                      And the main differences in the NEW priesthood are that it is for ALL believers and they offer up spiritual gifts, and not burnt offerings.
                      The priesthood of the OT was for all believers of the House of Israel also. The difference being in the NT--the NT includes those of the Gentile nations also, and is a New Covenant. Th4e priesthood administers to those also--in the New Covenant.

                      How does that compute into "the priesthood of all believers"--as the Lutherans preach it? Where do we find that term in the Biblical text?

                      And the NT priesthood is in the blood of Jesus Christ and not in the blood of mere animals. Therefore, it is NOT LIKE the old covenant and the old priesthood. It is NEW.
                      I agree--it is a new covenant. How does that convert into "the priesthood of all believers"? As I stated--it is a priesthood of all believers in the sense that it administers to all believers--but not in the fact all hold that priesthood.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        James 2:24 ---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

                        Straight from the "epistle of straw"--as Luther would have it.
                        For most people 2-1=1. It is by grace through faith not works, or to out it more succinctly, it is by grace through faith alone. See Eph 2:8-9.
                        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                        Peace,
                        BJ -Bear
                        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                        WELS

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                          For most people 2-1=1. It is by grace through faith not works, or to out it more succinctly, it is by grace through faith alone. See Eph 2:8-9.
                          IOW--one is saved through a faith without works?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                            Again----a kingdom of priests was what we find in the OT testimony:

                            Exodus 19:5-6--- King James Version (KJV)
                            5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
                            6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

                            So--who did that exclude? All of Israel's believers were included--but not as actual holders of the priesthood..
                            You are posting an oxymoron. If a person is told that they are of a kingdom of priests then they have an office, a priesthood.

                            You are mistaking how people minister for an exclusive all encompassing office. Remember Korah and his bunch? He and his bunch tried to usurp the ministry of Aaron/Levites and paid the price. However, both before and after this you will find non-Aaronic/Levitical people performing priestly functions, sometimes at the command of the Lord.

                            Read the OT. It does a body good.
                            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                            Peace,
                            BJ -Bear
                            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                            WELS

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                              IOW--one is saved through a faith without works?
                              Yes, but as is made explicit in the next verse, Eph 2:10, the saved are created in Christ Jesus to do good works.
                              Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                              Peace,
                              BJ -Bear
                              VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                              WELS

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post

                                Prove it. Or at least attempt to provide some evidence.
                                I don't need to prove the negative. It's up to you guys to PROVE Lutheranism is a True Faith.

                                That's essentially what certain poster here demands on the Mormonism forum.. so here we are on the Lutheran forum making the same request.

                                Now I could take the tact that some on the Mormonism forum takes .. and appeal to the non-believer approach, such as pointing out that there was discovered bone box with Jesus' name on it, and it had bones. So the Lutheran faith in a Resurrected Jesus is false?

                                Or I could point out that the foundation of the Lutheran faith is nothing but a reformation of man made dogma established in the 4th century and it doesn't actually have an objective basis for what Christ taught in the 1st century..

                                I could go on....

                                Comment

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