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"true faith"

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  • "true faith"

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    A true faith LEADS to doing good works.
    If one does not do "good works"--is it still a "true faith"?

    A Lutheran posted this on another board. Could Bonnie or another Lutheran relate to us what the answer to my question is--regarding her statement?

  • #2
    Faith is faith. In the Christian context the object or content of that faith, the true Christ, makes the difference.
    Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

    Peace,
    BJ -Bear
    VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
    WELS

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
      Faith is faith. In the Christian context the object or content of that faith, the true Christ, makes the difference.
      Then--to my point--does the content of "true faith" include works?(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

        Then--to my point--does the content of "true faith" include works?(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)
        The saved by grace through faith not works are created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

        Your point seems to be that you are unwilling to affirm the true Christ as the object or content of faith in the Christian context. Otherwise, you wouldn't continue ask about faith apart from Christ in the Christian context.
        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

        Peace,
        BJ -Bear
        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
        WELS

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
          The saved by grace through faith not works are created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

          Your point seems to be that you are unwilling to affirm the true Christ as the object or content of faith in the Christian context. Otherwise, you wouldn't continue ask about faith apart from Christ in the Christian context.
          My point and question is simple--does "true faith" include works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) in Lutheran theology?

          IE--

          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post A true faith LEADS to doing good works.
          It's very hard to get Lutherans to answer questions, such as that--and I believe I know why.

          BJ--it's a yes or no answer.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            My point and question is simple--does "true faith" include works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) in Lutheran theology?

            IE--



            It's very hard to get Lutherans to answer questions, such as that--and I believe I know why.

            BJ--it's a yes or no answer.
            Faith is faith. It is the object or content which makes the difference in the Christian context.

            I am not moving on this because that is the way all of Scripture speaks and because there are some that use a true/false faith distinction to support error.
            Last edited by BJ BEAR; 12-06-18, 05:01 PM. Reason: Typo
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

              My point and question is simple--does "true faith" include works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) in Lutheran theology?

              IE--



              It's very hard to get Lutherans to answer questions, such as that--and I believe I know why.

              BJ--it's a yes or no answer.
              Li

              And it is extremely difficult to get some in pseudo-Christian cults to answer our simple questions, even over several months' time. Like the questions I have asked about Eph. 2:10 and Eph. 2:1-7. And Hebrews 11. And I think we know why....
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                My point and question is simple--does "true faith" include works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) in Lutheran theology?

                IE--



                It's very hard to get Lutherans to answer questions, such as that--and I believe I know why.

                BJ--it's a yes or no answer.
                Faith and works. Faith does not include works. (definition of faith
                trust, belief, confidence, conviction; optimism, hopefulness, hope)
                Works ( labor, toil, slog, drudgery, exertion, effort, industry, service )

                Works are the result of faith. They come from it.
                Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                  Faith and works. Faith does not include works. (definition of faith
                  trust, belief, confidence, conviction; optimism, hopefulness, hope)
                  Works ( labor, toil, slog, drudgery, exertion, effort, industry, service )

                  Works are the result of faith. They come from it.
                  Thank you Thekla--for that forthcoming explanation.

                  If that is so--then the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):

                  James 2:18-26 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                  19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                  20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                  21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                  22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                  23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                  24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                  25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                  26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We keep telling you this, but yeah, we are saved without faith. We are given faith to us by God and if we accept it, it comes alive within us. After we are saved by grace, Christ gives us works to do, not before.
                    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                      We keep telling you this, but yeah, we are saved without faith. We are given faith to us by God and if we accept it, it comes alive within us. After we are saved by grace, Christ gives us works to do, not before.
                      Then you don't believe the remission of sins isn't necessary for salvation to occur?

                      Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christfor the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                      Acts 22:16 --King James Version (KJV)
                      16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
                      "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                      SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        Then you don't believe the remission of sins isn't necessary for salvation to occur?

                        Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christfor the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                        Acts 22:16 --King James Version (KJV)
                        16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
                        "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                        SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
                        There is no remission of sins apart from Christ and faith in Him. The preaching of the gospel in word and sacrament to a person is the application of the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus. Evangelicals call this application of the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus to the individual the means of grace.

                        He that believed and was baptized will be saved.
                        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                        Peace,
                        BJ -Bear
                        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                        WELS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                          There is no remission of sins apart from Christ and faith in Him.
                          BJ--I believe "faith in Him" includes all the works Jesus Christ gives us to do--so your statement above means little to me--as I agree with it, and does not add anything to the specific concern.

                          The testimony of Thekla is:

                          Originally posted by Thekla View Post

                          We keep telling you this, but yeah, we are saved without faith. We are given faith to us by God and if we accept it, it comes alive within us. After we are saved by grace, Christ gives us works to do, not before.
                          If Jesus Christ only gives us works to do AFTER we are saved--then the question begs to be asked--are we saved before the remission of sins?

                          Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                          Acts 22:16 --King James Version (KJV)
                          16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


                          "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                          SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tell me how people are saved. Don't put in a Bible verse like you usually do, because we seem to disagree on the meaning of the verse, so tell me what a Pastor or Missionary does to save people, or a person who is in the middle of nowhere is saved.
                            Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                            “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                            but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                            Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                              Tell me how people are saved. Don't put in a Bible verse like you usually do, because we seem to disagree on the meaning of the verse, so tell me what a Pastor or Missionary does to save people, or a person who is in the middle of nowhere is saved.
                              They teach him the gospel--faith in the Lord Jesus Christ--repentance, baptism for the remission of sins--and the gift of the Holy Ghost, following Christ,--and enduring to the end.

                              That is the core salvational doctrines found in the Biblical NT.

                              Comment

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