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  • #16
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    They teach him the gospel--faith in the Lord Jesus Christ--repentance, baptism for the remission of sins--and the gift of the Holy Ghost, following Christ,--and enduring to the end.

    That is the core salvational doctrines found in the Biblical NT.
    That is what we say that you don't agree with. Where are the good works you always add.
    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Thekla View Post

      That is what we say that you don't agree with. Where are the good works you always add.
      The sense I get is that under his/her scheme of salvation faith and works are the same. Much like the RC doctrine of justification.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post They teach him the gospel--faith in the Lord Jesus Christ--repentance, baptism for the remission of sins--and the gift of the Holy Ghost, following Christ,--and enduring to the end.

        That is the core salvational doctrines found in the Biblical NT.
        Originally posted by Thekla View Post
        That is what we say that you don't agree with. Where are the good works you always add.
        Since when is "following Christ" or "water baptism" not involve acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

        Acts 2:38-42-- King James Version (KJV)
        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christfor the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
        39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
        40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
        41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
        42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dropkick View Post
          The sense I get is that under his/her scheme of salvation faith and works are the same. Much like the RC doctrine of justification.
          The Biblical theme--and mine--do not have faith and works as necessarily being the same, in the same sense that a car and an engine are the same thing.

          But they are integral components to one another.

          For example--when one used the term "house"--that term includes all the components which make it up:

          Term: House

          Components: door, windows, walls, foundation, roof, etc.

          Term: faith in Christ

          Components: repentance, water baptism, walking in the light, taking care of the poor, following Christ, magnifying our gifts, doing good, etc.



          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



            Since when is "following Christ" or "water baptism" not involve acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

            Acts 2:38-42-- King James Version (KJV)
            38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christfor the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
            39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
            40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
            41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
            42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
            We wouldn't repent or be baptized as adults if we didn't have faith.
            Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

            “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
            but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


            Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Dropkick View Post

              The sense I get is that under his/her scheme of salvation faith and works are the same. Much like the RC doctrine of justification.
              In works righteous cults like Mormonism, salvation is the following: faith + works = grace + salvation. Whereas in true Christianity, the gospel is grace thru faith = salvation + works. But they don't understand that. Sad.
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                BJ--I believe "faith in Him" includes all the works Jesus Christ gives us to do--so your statement above means little to me--as I agree with it, and does not add anything to the specific concern.

                The testimony of Thekla is:



                If Jesus Christ only gives us works to do AFTER we are saved--then the question begs to be asked--are we saved before the remission of sins?

                Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                Acts 22:16 --King James Version (KJV)
                16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


                "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
                Baptism is the work of God not man. This is a article by WLS. It is very interesting and explains it in much greater detail than the Large Catechism.
                http://essays.wls.wels.net/bitstream...pyLuther.pdf?s
                Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Good morning DB,

                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  The Biblical theme--and mine--do not have faith and works as necessarily being the same, in the same sense that a car and an engine are the same thing.

                  But they are integral components to one another.

                  For example--when one used the term "house"--that term includes all the components which make it up:

                  Term: House

                  Components: door, windows, walls, foundation, roof, etc.

                  Term: faith in Christ

                  Components: repentance, water baptism, walking in the light, taking care of the poor, following Christ, magnifying our gifts, doing good, etc.
                  The categories you are using are not correct and are skewed because there is no recognition or accounting of the old Adam and the old Adam's new life in Christ.

                  The Savior by definition saves sinners. If you go back and read Leviticus you will find that the Lord gave a life for a life for the sins of people. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Men can only believe or trust that as the sinners works aren't Christ and don't merit the freely given sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

                  The baptized disciples of the true Christ are united with Him in his death and resurrection through their baptism into Him and consequently are alive to God through faith in Him. See Romans 6. It is through and in this new life in Christ that good works are done. That is not at all like your analogy of a static house and static person who is dead in their trespasses and sins apart from the true Christ.

                  Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                  Peace,
                  BJ -Bear
                  VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                  WELS

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                    We wouldn't repent or be baptized as adults if we didn't have faith.
                    I agree--and our faith would be dead faith if we refused to repent and be baptized.

                    How does that extricate one from the fact the scriptures connect God giving salvational grace to them which do His work?

                    Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                    Acts 22:16 --King James Version (KJV)
                    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      In works righteous cults like Mormonism, salvation is the following: faith + works = grace + salvation. Whereas in true Christianity, the gospel is grace thru faith = salvation + works. But they don't understand that. Sad.
                      Were those here saved prior to the remission of sins?

                      Acts 2:38-42--- King James Version (KJV)
                      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                      39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                      40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                      41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                      42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                        Baptism is the work of God not man.
                        Repentance and water baptism is a "work of God", meaning it's origins is in God. It's not a work of God in the sense it's God being baptized--nor that God needs the remission of sins:

                        Acts 2:38---- King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                        That's man's obedience to God, in doing His work--- that we might receive of His grace.

                        All works which are good are from God, as all truth is from God, IMO.

                        Neither does that mean it's God being judged here:

                        John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                        28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                        29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                        2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                        10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                        Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                        27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                        Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                        5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                        6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                        7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                        8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                        9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                        10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                        11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                        1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                        16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                        17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          Repentance and water baptism is a "work of God", meaning it's origins is in God. It's not a work of God in the sense it's God being baptized--nor that God needs the remission of sins:

                          Acts 2:38---- King James Version (KJV)
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                          That's man's obedience to God, in doing His work--- that we might receive of His grace.

                          All works which are good are from God, as all truth is from God, IMO.

                          Neither does that mean it's God being judged here:

                          John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                          2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                          10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                          Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                          Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                          5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                          6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                          7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                          8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                          9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                          10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                          11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                          1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                          16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                          17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
                          It is the work of God because he died for us takes away our sins, gives us the Holy Spirit. and saves us..Its like the work of a Doctor saving a dying person.

                          And again, God rewards his servants for doing the good works he has prepared for them to do. This isn't talking about people who do not believe in him.
                          Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                          “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                          but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                          Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                            It is the work of God because he died for us takes away our sins, gives us the Holy Spirit.
                            I believe it's true that God died for the sins of the whole world--but that does not mean all sins are forgiven. If that were true, IE--all sins were forgiven----then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--following the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

                            There is a difference of the opportunity to obtain the remission of sins--and the actual personal reception of the remission of sins.

                            IOW-- anyone can have the remission of sins, through obedience to Jesus Christ---as God purchased that right for all men through His Atonement.

                            and saves us..Its like the work of a Doctor saving a dying person.
                            That does not mean the Doctor gives them a Doctorate degree.

                            And again, God rewards his servants for doing the good works he has prepared for them to do. This isn't talking about people who do not believe in him.
                            But that reward is either life or damnation:

                            John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                            28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                            29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                            How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                              I believe it's true that God died for the sins of the whole world--but that does not mean all sins are forgiven. If that were true, IE--all sins were forgiven----then why were all men commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--following the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

                              It is God's work. Christ died to save us from our sins, Baptism is one of his ways of giving us faith, salvation and the Holy Spirit. It is through him we are saved not anything we can do without him.

                              There is a difference of the opportunity to obtain the remission of sins--and the actual personal reception of the remission of sins.

                              IOW-- anyone can have the remission of sins, through obedience to Jesus Christ---as God purchased that right for all men through His Atonement.



                              That does not mean the Doctor gives them a Doctorate degree.

                              Come on DB. You know what I was saying. A person who is dying and is being operated upon does nothing for his health. He receives it from the Doctor.

                              But that reward is either life or damnation:

                              John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                              28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                              29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                              How does one fit that into faith alone theology?
                              Those who believe and serve God are saved. Those who do not believe in him or reject him as Satan did are not saved.
                              Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                              “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                              but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                              Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                                Those who believe and serve God are saved.
                                Hi Thelka--I continue to point out that anomaly in the Lutheran faith.

                                How can one be saved without faith, as you claim--and then connect being saved as those who believe in, and serve God?

                                Again--that's a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.

                                Either a person is saved without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ, as the Lutherans claim--or God extends His salvational grace to them which do His works. But not both.

                                The Lutherans have a difficult time understanding that, but it's really a simple principle to understand.

                                If God saves those who believe in, and serve God in acts of obedience--then faith alone theology is false. Faith alone theology is predicated upon the theology one is saved prior to any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                                Revelation 22:14--- King James Version (KJV)
                                14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


                                Comment

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