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  • dberrie2000
    started a topic "true faith"

    "true faith"

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    A true faith LEADS to doing good works.
    If one does not do "good works"--is it still a "true faith"?

    A Lutheran posted this on another board. Could Bonnie or another Lutheran relate to us what the answer to my question is--regarding her statement?

  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    These people were Jews.
    Repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins was required of all nations.

    They had faith in God. They were asked to repent of their sins and be baptized which was not a new thing for them. Remember John the Baptist baptized for the remission of sins prior to Jesus teaching. The difference after Christ's Resurection is that you receive the Holy Spirit and do not need to be baptized again.
    That still has repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

    That's one doing works in order to receive of God's grace.

    How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

    Acts 2:38-42--- King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thekla
    replied
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Hi Nic:

    Yes. And that faith is a faith with obedience to Jesus Christ's commands, such as repentance and water baptism--for the remission of sins.

    I believe that is the gateway into the "strait" and "narrow" way which leadeth unto life.

    Matthew 7:13-14 ---King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    IOW--it's not eternal life, in and by itself--but what leads to eternal life, as there is further requirements still:

    Matthew 10:22--- King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Or, IOW--we must continue to walk in the Light:

    1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Which is what we find here:

    Acts 2:38-42--- King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    How does one fit that into Lutheran theology? That has God extending His salvational grace to them which DO His works. The Lutherans preach first, one is saved through a faith without works, IE--that one cannot even obey until they are saved.
    These people were Jews. They had faith in God. They were asked to repent of their sins and be baptized which was not a new thing for them. Remember John the Baptist baptized for the remission of sins prior to Jesus teaching. The difference after Christ's Resurection is that you receive the Holy Spirit and do not need to be baptized again.

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Nic View Post
    Hi DBerry, So in your theology faith in Christ precedes getting grace to be saved. Is that a fair summary on that specific point?
    Hi Nic:

    Yes. And that faith is a faith with obedience to Jesus Christ's commands, such as repentance and water baptism--for the remission of sins.

    I believe that is the gateway into the "strait" and "narrow" way which leadeth unto life.

    Matthew 7:13-14 ---King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    IOW--it's not eternal life, in and by itself--but what leads to eternal life, as there is further requirements still:

    Matthew 10:22--- King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Or, IOW--we must continue to walk in the Light:

    1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Which is what we find here:

    Acts 2:38-42--- King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    How does one fit that into Lutheran theology? That has God extending His salvational grace to them which DO His works. The Lutherans preach first, one is saved through a faith without works, IE--that one cannot even obey until they are saved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nic
    replied
    Hi DBerry,
    So in your theology faith in Christ precedes getting grace to be saved. Is that a fair summary on that specific point?

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Nic View Post
    DBerry,

    Do you believe that it is believers or unbelievers who obey God?
    Hi Nic--interesting question.

    I believe either a believer or an unbeliever can obey God---as in acts of obedience. For instance--I know agnostics which are true and faithful to their marriage covenant, or help the poor and needy, and love their fellow man.

    But only those who follow Jesus Christ through faith in Him--inherit His grace unto eternal life--that is a package deal, as I understand it. Jesus is the Redeemer, and has bought all men with a price--and has the right to set the conditions of eternal life.

    As a side----

    Nic--I don't find anywhere in the Bible where judgment is an all or nothing judgment. All who do not inherit eternal life--are damned, IE--they are cast off from His presence. That does not mean they are all damned to the same fate, but they are damned, as far as eternal life goes. They cannot enter into the presence of God, and stay.

    I believe the Bible teaches there are different degrees of glory in the hereafter--and all will be judged and rewarded accordingly.

    IOW--if one does not make an "A" in school--does not mean they fail completely. They may have to settle for a "B"--or a "C"--but not necessarily an "F". They are damned in the respect they will not receive the desserts of those who receive an "A"--but not in the fact they fall to the bottom.

    As the scriptures preach--there is no forgiveness for the sons of perdition--but all else can achieve some form of glory--if they will agree to accept Jesus Christ.

    That may reject Christ here--and agree to accept Him there--and be damned, and suffer for their own sins--but afterward---have what the Savior can do for them in some other form of glory--but not the Glory of Eternal Life.

    Jesus died for all men--and He will do what He can for them, but unless they follow Christ here, if they have the opportunity--then they will be damned to something other than Eternal Life--and not be able to return to His presence. But that does not mean He hasn't another mansion for them to dwell in, after they suffer for their own sins.

    I say this in reference to the peripheral of our discussion--so an expanded view might be possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nic
    replied
    DBerry,
    Do you believe that it is believers or unbelievers who obey God?

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    These are the Noahide Laws. They were for all of Noah's descendants.

    Genesis 9: 9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

    4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

    7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

    8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
    I'm not sure how--or what--you are connecting this to????

    When you read them you can see that they are the laws of most countries and religions. Many of the 10 Commandments are also part of most countries and religions laws. So people can keep many of God's laws without know God.

    The question for you then, if people who do not know God are keeping his commandments is it because they have faith in God. Does keeping these laws save them if they believe in some other God? Are they serving God if they keep these laws to please another God?
    Keeping the commandments is connected to faith in Jesus Christ--as a Christian doctrine. Those who live the commandments will be blessed for doing so--even if they are ignorant of Jesus Christ.

    But to inherit His grace unto life--one must have both Jesus Christ and His Father--which comes through living the doctrine of the gospel. They, IE--the gospel and the obeying the commandments--- are not independent of one another, nor independent of His grace unto eternal life.

    1 John 2:3-4--- King James Version (KJV)
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thekla
    replied
    These are the Noahide Laws. They were for all of Noah's descendants.

    Genesis 9: 9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

    4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

    7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

    8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”


    When you read them you can see that they are the laws of most countries and religions. Many of the 10 Commandments are also part of most countries and religions laws. So people can keep many of God's laws without know God.

    The question for you then, if people who do not know God are keeping his commandments is it because they have faith in God. Does keeping these laws save them if they believe in some other God? Are they serving God if they keep these laws to please another God?

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post How does any of that relate to the fact the scriptures testify we have both the Father and the Son on conditions of obeying His doctrine?

    Thekla--one can't believe that--and believe one can't obey God until AFTER they receive salvation.

    Again--

    2 John 9 ---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    Matthew 7:19-21 ---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    Read Romans 1. It is too long to copy here.
    How are you claiming my reading of 1 Romans--will change the testimony of the above scriptures---or the point made in the post?

    Leave a comment:


  • Thekla
    replied
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    How does any of that relate to the fact the scriptures testify we have both the Father and the Son on conditions of obeying His doctrine?

    Thekla--one can't believe that--and believe one can't obey God until AFTER they receive salvation.

    Again--

    2 John 9 ---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    Matthew 7:19-21 ---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Read Romans 1. It is too long to copy here.

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    James 1: 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


    You really shouldn't take so many scriptures out of context. If you read the entire section you learn more.Were we tempted prior to our salvation? Of course everyone in the world is. Satan rules over us prior to our salvation. It is only until we are saved that we thank God for our salvation and thank him for His gift of grace.
    How does any of that relate to the fact the scriptures testify we have both the Father and the Son on conditions of obeying His doctrine?

    Thekla--one can't believe that--and believe one can't obey God until AFTER they receive salvation.

    Again--

    2 John 9 ---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    Matthew 7:19-21 ---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thekla
    replied
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    I testify to you that it is the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

    But in faith alone theology--one must abide in God BEFORE any obedience can occur. The Bible has it just the opposite--one cannot have either the Father or the Son--unless they abide in His doctrine.

    James 1:11-12 ---King James Version (KJV)
    11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


    James 1: 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


    You really shouldn't take so many scriptures out of context. If you read the entire section you learn more.Were we tempted prior to our salvation? Of course everyone in the world is. Satan rules over us prior to our salvation. It is only until we are saved that we thank God for our salvation and thank him for His gift of grace.

    Leave a comment:


  • dberrie2000
    replied
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    That is the doctrine of Christ.
    I testify to you that it is the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

    But in faith alone theology--one must abide in God BEFORE any obedience can occur. The Bible has it just the opposite--one cannot have either the Father or the Son--unless they abide in His doctrine.

    James 1:11-12 ---King James Version (KJV)
    11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.



    Leave a comment:


  • Thekla
    replied
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Could you explain how that somehow negates the testimony of the scriptures--which places obeying the gospel as the condition of --"He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
    That is the doctrine of Christ.

    Leave a comment:

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