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The gift of God

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  • The gift of God

    Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
    You are still misinterpreting the verse because it says by grace *through* faith are you saved, it is the gift of God.
    The testimony of Jesus Christ has the servants of God being judged according with what they do with the gifts of God--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness":

    Matthew 25:14-30 ---King James Version (KJV)
    14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Could anyone here explain to us how the Lutherans expect to establish "faith alone" theology using the argument that faith is a gift from God?

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could anyone here explain to us how the Lutherans expect to establish "faith alone" theology using the argument that faith is a gift from God?
    By grace *through* faith have you been saved... created in Christ Jesus to do good works...

    In other words, By unmerited favor *through* faith have you been saved...created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

    ​​​​​​What question is Jesus answering, and at what point along the above would the last day be?
    ​​​​​​
    Hint: He that believed and was baptized will be saved. Mark 16:16. Of course, that is belief in and baptism into the true Christ.
    Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

    Peace,
    BJ -Bear
    VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
    WELS

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

      The testimony of Jesus Christ has the servants of God being judged according with what they do with the gifts of God--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness":

      It seems as if you don't know the difference between the Bema seat Judgement and the White Throne Judgement.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
        By grace *through* faith have you been saved... created in Christ Jesus to do good works...

        In other words, By unmerited favor *through* faith have you been saved..
        There is no such testimony, nor term---used in the Biblical text. It's likened unto the claim of "faith alone". Does not exist in the Biblical text--in any form the Lutherans preach.

        As the parable shows--the servants were given either the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness"--in accordance with what they did with the gifts the Lord presented to them:

        Matthew 25:14-30 ---King James Version (KJV)
        14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
        15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
        16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
        17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
        18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
        19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
        20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
        21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
        22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
        23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
        24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
        25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
        26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
        27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
        28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
        29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
        30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

        There are forms of God's grace which are unmerited--such as God's Atonement for all men. That is a free gift to all men. Unmerited.

        God's grace unto life--as a personal reception--is merited on our obedience to Jesus Christ, IE--

        1 John 1:7--- King James Version (KJV)
        7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
          It seems as if you don't know the difference between the Bema seat Judgement and the White Throne Judgement.
          For me--it makes little difference--as the testimony of the Savior--and the apostles--have all men being judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:

          John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

          2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
          10 For wemust all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

          Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

          Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
          5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
          6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
          7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
          8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
          9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
          10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
          11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
          1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
          16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
          17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

          How do we fit that into Lutheran theology?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            There is no such testimony, nor term---used in the Biblical text. It's likened unto the claim of "faith alone". Does not exist in the Biblical text--in any form the Lutherans preach.
            To most people 2-1=1. If a person claims that is a false assertion then that person doesn't want to be reasoned with or can't be reasoned with.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
              To most people 2-1=1. If a person claims that is a false assertion then that person doesn't want to be reasoned with or can't be reasoned with.
              Hi BJ:

              How does that explain the obvious contradictions in the Lutheran theology concerning the gifts of God?

              Matthew 25:14-30 ---King James Version (KJV)
              14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
              15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
              16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
              17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
              18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
              19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
              20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
              21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
              22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
              23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
              24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
              25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
              26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
              27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
              28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
              29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
              30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


              BJ--here is the math: Those who magnify their gifts="the joy of thy lord". Those who do not="outer darkness". Plus or minus nothing.

              How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                For me--it makes little difference--as the testimony of the Savior--and the apostles--have all men being judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:

                John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                10 For wemust all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                How do we fit that into Lutheran theology?
                Your theology should have you quacking in your boots....Your theology should terrify anyone and everyone. Your works based theology has a major big time flaw...no matter how well you think you're doing....you still can't hold up to Gods standards. Your theology sends every single human being straight to hell.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  Hi BJ:

                  How does that explain the obvious contradictions in the Lutheran theology concerning the gifts of God?
                  There is no contradiction in Scripture between Jesus and Paul, Jesus and James, and Jesus and Paul and James in this regard no matter how much a person wants to pretend there is.

                  "By grace *through* faith have you been saved... created in Christ Jesus to do good works...

                  In other words, By unmerited favor *through* faith have you been saved...created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

                  ​​​​​​What question is Jesus answering, and at what point along the above would the last day be?
                  ​​​​​​
                  Hint: He that believed and was baptized will be saved. Mark 16:16. Of course, that is belief in and baptism into the true Christ."
                  Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                  Peace,
                  BJ -Bear
                  VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                  WELS

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post

                    There is no contradiction in Scripture between Jesus and Paul, Jesus and James, and Jesus and Paul and James in this regard no matter how much a person wants to pretend there is.
                    That does not seem to be the position of Luther:


                    Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522)---http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

                    "Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.

                    In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."

                    The Lutherans still believe the Book of James to be in the category of "antilegomena"--does it not?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      QUOTE=dberrie2000;n5714061]

                      That does not seem to be the position of Luther:
                      [/QUOTE]

                      Luther initially took a swing and a miss on James, but he made the measure he was using explicit and he recognized the antilegomena status of James and said it was his opinion, people should or could regard it as they would.

                      That brings up the point of the other poster who suggested reading about the history of the canon. Regardless of whether a book is antilegomena or homolegomena they are canonical.
                      Last edited by BJ BEAR; 12-06-18, 04:34 PM. Reason: Typo
                      Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                      Peace,
                      BJ -Bear
                      VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                      WELS

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                        Luther initially took a swing and a miss on James, but he made the measure he was using explicit and he recognized the antilegomena status of James and said it was his opinion, people should or could regard it as they would.
                        Could you show us where Luther's opinion on James changed--as Luther's testimony claims here?


                        Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522)---http://www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

                        "Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.

                        In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation 2 devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle."

                        IOW--that is not the position the Lutherans take here--nor can it be possible the scriptures are inerrant, if that is true.

                        So--if James is pitted against Paul's position--then how do the Lutherans determine which position of true--and which is false?

                        Comment

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