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  • Dead faith


    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    Faith and works. Faith does not include works. (definition of faith
    trust, belief, confidence, conviction; optimism, hopefulness, hope)
    Works ( labor, toil, slog, drudgery, exertion, effort, industry, service )

    Works are the result of faith. They come from it.
    Thank you Thekla--for that forthcoming explanation.

    If that is so--then the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):

    James 2:18-26 ---King James Version (KJV)
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Lutherans?

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post


    Thank you Thekla--for that forthcoming explanation.

    If that is so--then the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):


    Lutherans?
    Some, like you present an extremely selfish salvation message. That is you work to save your own butt. You think at the end of the days God is going to look at all of your good works...and if you have accumulated enough....save you. So you "work" for yourself, to save your own butt...selfish.

    On the other hand, many have come to understand that they work to glorify God....Unlike you, they don't need the selfish recognition.

    They work because one of the byproducts of their salvation is WORKS. On the other hand you WORK with the hope of achieve salvation.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?

    Those that work in the selfish manner, hoping to obtain salvation don't have a saving faith in Christ..so their works are dead. Meaningless.

    Jesus did it all.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good post, CrowCross....here is a sermon that presents just this idea:

      https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...-falling-short

      So when the Holy Spirit opens our mind and turns our heart so that we do the unheard of thing and counter-intuitive think and GIVE UP ON OURSELVES and trust in Jesus Christ, we have ‘peace with God.’ We are “free” from all the worrying and striving and stressing about our salvation. The Son, by His GOD PLEASING SACRIFICE on the cross, “has set you free indeed.”

      Not FREE to continue in sin. FREE to love God and FREE to love our neighbor.

      To live ‘by faith,’ means that we live IN THE PRESENT where real life is lived with all of its sorrow and all of its joys. We LIVE IN THE PRESENT because God has shown us “his righteousness at the PRESENT TIME…”

      In the ‘present time,’ when it feels as though the world is on fire and the foundations are crumbling and the future is so uncertain. “Though hordes of devils fill the land all threatening to devour us, we tremble not, unmoved, we stand.” WE DON’T JUMP.

      We love. We serve. We encourage and comfort one another. We proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because there is no difference, everyone needs to hear it.

      As long as you were doing all of our ‘good works’ in order to be saved, we were doing them all ‘for me.’ They are all done in selfishness. And there is no ‘love’ in ‘selfishness’ no matter how ‘good’ our ‘good works’ might be.

      But now that Christ Jesus has set you free from all of that, we are free to actually see our neighbor and his need and do good works solely for his good. And there is real ‘love’ in that.


      So then, what does it mean to live ‘by faith’? For one thing, it means that we stop worrying about our salvation because we know that already have been saved. It means that we put our trust in Christ and Him crucified and not at all in ourselves. But it also means that we have been ‘set free’ to love one another as we have been loved by God.
      From http://lcrwtvl.org/2016/10/reformati...319-28-103016/

      Those in works righteous pseudo-Christian cults waste time and energy trying to please God with their empty, man-made works and law-keeping, which will never save them, because all of their efforts will always be TAINTED WITH SIN. How much better is it to allow the indwelling HS to make new creations out of us, through the Gospel message, so that we want to do what is right, out of faith and love!

      May the true Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible free them from doing dead works tin whitewashed tombs, to serve the LIVING GOD. And NOT their false, man-made gods.
      Last edited by Bonnie; 12-08-18, 12:26 PM.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
        Some, like you present an extremely selfish salvation message. That is you work to save your own butt. You think at the end of the days God is going to look at all of your good works...and if you have accumulated enough....save you. So you "work" for yourself, to save your own butt...selfish.

        On the other hand, many have come to understand that they work to glorify God....Unlike you, they don't need the selfish recognition.

        They work because one of the byproducts of their salvation is WORKS. On the other hand you WORK with the hope of achieve salvation.

        DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?

        Those that work in the selfish manner, hoping to obtain salvation don't have a saving faith in Christ..so their works are dead. Meaningless.

        Jesus did it all.
        I'm not sure how you are relating any of this to the point of the OP--IE--the Lutheran here believed one is saved by God's grace, through a faith without works(dead faith).

        That's the point of the OP, IE--how do Lutherans collate their theology of one being saved through a dead faith--with the testimony of the scriptures?

        Your critique or opinion of me cannot change the fact the Lutherans believe in being saved through what the scriptures term as dead faith,IE--(faith alone theology)

        Originally posted by Thekla View Post Faith and works. Faith does not include works.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

          I'm not sure how you are relating any of this to the point of the OP--IE--the Lutheran here believed one is saved by God's grace, through a faith without works(dead faith).

          That's the point of the OP, IE--how do Lutherans collate their theology of one being saved through a dead faith--with the testimony of the scriptures?

          Your critique or opinion of me cannot change the fact the Lutherans believe in being saved through what the scriptures term as dead faith,IE--(faith alone theology)



          So, you DON'T understand the difference.

          Works is based upon dead faith. If you think works saves you...your faith is dead. Your selfish works to save your own butt rather than working for Gods glory demonstrated dead faith.

          Do you not now faith is a gift? It's in Ephesians.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
            So, you DON'T understand the difference.
            What I understand has nothing to do with Lutheran theology.

            As the testimony of Thekla stated--it's a faith without works:

            Originally posted by Thekla View Post Faith and works. Faith does not include works.
            How are you ascribing what I believe to that?

            The Lutherans believe is obtaining salvation by grace through a faith without works(dead faith). Period--regardless of what you think I might believe--or your judgments against me.



            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post





              The Lutherans believe is obtaining salvation by grace through a faith without works(dead faith). Period--regardless of what you think I might believe--or your judgments against me.


              That is true....works don't save.
              have you NEVER read this...Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

              You do know if you have truly been saved...it will be demonstrated through your works. If you have. no works....your probably are not saved and exist in the world of dead faith.

              If your workin to obtain salvation....you present a false selfish faith. You contradict "not a result of works"...You work to save your self, your own butt rather than working for the grace of God.

              Bottom line..you work because you are saved...not to get saved. Remember...not a result of works.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                Do you not now faith is a gift? It's in Ephesians.
                I do--and my testimony is that faith is a gift from God.

                And the testimony of the Savior is--all will be judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts:

                Matthew 25:14-30--- King James Version (KJV)
                14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
                15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
                16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
                17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
                18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
                19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
                20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
                21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
                22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
                23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
                24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
                25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
                26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
                27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
                28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
                29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
                30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

                Please do notice--they were all "his own servants" to begin with. Those which magnified their gifts were termed "faithful. The one who din't--"unprofitable servant". That they were all judged according to what they did with the gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

                How does that differ from the testimonies here?

                John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  I do--and my testimony is that faith is a gift from God.

                  And the testimony of the Savior is--all will be judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts:

                  rest snipped
                  You're too cookbook dberrie. Same old replies.... You need to look at those verses in combination with the knowledge of what the White Throne Judgement is as well as the Bema Seat Judgement.

                  One is for the saved while the other is for the lost. Yes, your works will be judged at each of those judgements....which one are you planning to attend dberrie?

                  If you think you can work well enough to get saved...God will say to you....you worked to save your butt from Hell. You thought I'd be impressed with you. You didn't work to glorify Me. You think you can add to the finished work of the cross? By doing?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    I'm not sure how you are relating any of this to the point of the OP--IE--the Lutheran here believed one is saved by God's grace, through a faith without works(dead faith).

                    That's the point of the OP, IE--how do Lutherans collate their theology of one being saved through a dead faith--with the testimony of the scriptures?

                    Your critique or opinion of me cannot change the fact the Lutherans believe in being saved through what the scriptures term as dead faith,IE--(faith alone theology)



                    You still won't see what point we are getting at. Tell us, what "works" did the thief on the cross do, that got him saved to paradise with Jesus after death?

                    Tell us how a DEAD faith can lead us to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, and to repent of our sins and turn to Him in faith, for salvation.

                    What is "faith" anyway, dberrie? The Hebrews writer gives us the definition:

                    Hebrews 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

                    The Triumphs of Faith

                    11 Now faith is the [a]assurance of things [b]hoped for, the [c]conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old [d]gained approval.
                    I don't see the definition of "faith" being "confidence in both God's work done our behalf, and our own works, leading unto our salvation."
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      I do--and my testimony is that faith is a gift from God.

                      And the testimony of the Savior is--all will be judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts:

                      Matthew 25:14-30--- King James Version (KJV)
                      14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
                      15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
                      16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
                      17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
                      18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
                      19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
                      20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
                      21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
                      22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
                      23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
                      24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
                      25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
                      26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
                      27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
                      28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
                      29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
                      30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

                      Please do notice--they were all "his own servants" to begin with. Those which magnified their gifts were termed "faithful. The one who din't--"unprofitable servant". That they were all judged according to what they did with the gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

                      How does that differ from the testimonies here?

                      John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                      28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                      29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                      2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                      10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                      Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                      27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                      Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                      5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                      6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                      7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                      8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                      9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                      10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                      11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                      1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                      16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                      17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                      Were the good servants faithful IN faith or outside of faith?

                      A true faith leads to doing good works out of love for what the Savior has done for us. Why is that so hard to understand?
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                        Were the good servants faithful IN faith or outside of faith?
                        That's a ridiculous question, IMO.

                        As the scriptures show--the servants were judged according to what they had done with the gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

                        How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?

                        A true faith leads to doing good works out of love for what the Savior has done for us.
                        There is no doubt a "true faith" will lead to good works. "True faith" is also born out of good works. There is no "true faith" without acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                        That's the rub, Bonnie. That's where the hide is revealed--your "true faith" is nothing but a faith without works. A dead faith. You couch in in a language which conceals the real truth, IE--a "true faith" is being saved through a dead faith--and THEN the works.

                        Your "leads to" means the works happen after the salvation--not added to faith in obtaining salvation.

                        The salvation happens before any works occur--IOW--a dead faith(faith without works) is all that is required for salvation to occur in Lutheran theology.

                        Bonnie--the Lutheran theology preaches salvation comes before any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                        IOW--your "true faith"--is nothing short of a dead faith.

                        James 2:18-26 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                        19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                        20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                        21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                        22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                        23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                        24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                        25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                        26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                        As Thekla testifies to--it's a faith which does not include any works--in Lutheran theology of obtaining salvation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          That's a ridiculous question, IMO.

                          As the scriptures show--the servants were judged according to what they had done with the gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

                          How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?



                          There is no doubt a "true faith" will lead to good works. "True faith" is also born out of good works. There is no "true faith" without acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                          That's the rub, Bonnie. That's where the hide is revealed--your "true faith" is nothing but a faith without works. A dead faith. You couch in in a language which conceals the real truth, IE--a "true faith" is being saved through a dead faith--and THEN the works.

                          Your "leads to" means the works happen after the salvation--not added to faith in obtaining salvation.

                          The salvation happens before any works occur--IOW--a dead faith(faith without works) is all that is required for salvation to occur in Lutheran theology.

                          Bonnie--the Lutheran theology preaches salvation comes before any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                          IOW--your "true faith"--is nothing short of a dead faith.

                          James 2:18-26 ---King James Version (KJV)
                          18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                          19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                          21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                          22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                          23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                          24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                          25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                          26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                          As Thekla testifies to--it's a faith which does not include any works--in Lutheran theology of obtaining salvation.
                          Why is it "ridiculous"? Because YOU say so?

                          [quote] For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which He prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

                          SO, according to these verses, WHO enables us to do good works? Are they done IN faith in Jesus, or OUTSIDE of faith in Jesus?

                          Tell me, was the faith of the thief on the cross living or dead? When he turned to Jesus Christ and asked to be remembered when He came into His kingdom? Was his a "true" faith"?
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post


                            Thank you Thekla--for that forthcoming explanation.

                            If that is so--then the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):

                            Lutherans?
                            This would be a misrepresentation of what Lutherans believe, teach, and confess. Lutherans look at the relationship between works and faith the same way that Paul did. So for example, Ephesians 2:8-10 demonstrates that we are saved by grace through faith, but this is not from us, it is a gift from God, not by works so that no one may boast. However, Paul believed that the reason we are saved through faith is so that we can do the works which God prepared in advance for us to do. Romans 3 tells us the same. We are justified by faith apart from works. It is faith that saves us, however, Paul shows us that our response to this faith is to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice to God (Romans 12). Faith is different from works, but works flow from our faith. Works don't justify, but if we are justified the holy spirit conforms us to the likeness of Christ. Also, if you read the Augsburg Confession, you will find the following about the relationship between faith and works: CA, Art. VI: "Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God's will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith..."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hodos View Post
                              This would be a misrepresentation of what Lutherans believe, teach, and confess. Lutherans look at the relationship between works and faith the same way that Paul did. So for example, Ephesians 2:8-10 demonstrates that we are saved by grace through faith, but this is not from us, it is a gift from God, not by works so that no one may boast. However, Paul believed that the reason we are saved through faith is so that we can do the works which God prepared in advance for us to do. Romans 3 tells us the same. We are justified by faith apart from works.
                              But that is just what I stated--the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):

                              Hodos--a faith apart from works is a faith without works--and that is termed as a dead faith:

                              James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
                              18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                              19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                              20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                              21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                              22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                              23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                              24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
                              25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                              26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                              It is faith that saves us,
                              The testimony of the Biblical scriptures is man is saved by God's grace. Didn't you just witness to that in your above post?

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