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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    Why is it "ridiculous"? Because YOU say so?

    For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are GOD'S workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which He prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

    SO, according to these verses, WHO enables us to do good works? Are they done IN faith in Jesus, or OUTSIDE of faith in Jesus?

    Tell me, was the faith of the thief on the cross living or dead? When he turned to Jesus Christ and asked to be remembered when He came into His kingdom? Was his a "true" faith"?
    What has any of this to do with my postulation the Lutherans preach one is saved through a faith without works?(dead faith)

    The Lutherans preach a faith alone doctrine in obtaining salvation--regardless of what kind of faith you or I believe the thief had, or what you believe one does IN faith, or who you believe enables us to do good works.

    The Lutherans preach obtaining eternal life without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ--period. Through a faith without works. That's dead faith--according to James:

    James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

      What has any of this to do with my postulation the Lutherans preach one is saved through a faith without works?(dead faith)

      The Lutherans preach a faith alone doctrine in obtaining salvation--regardless of what kind of faith you or I believe the thief had, or what you believe one does IN faith, or who you believe enables us to do good works.

      The Lutherans preach obtaining eternal life without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ--period. Through a faith without works. That's dead faith--according to James:

      James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
      18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
      19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
      20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
      21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
      22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
      23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
      24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
      25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
      26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
      We don't teach that one is saved by a dead faith. Get your facts straight, dberrie. That is what YOU think we teach, but that is false. As we have told you on here over and over again. You don't like it when one of us gets one of your church's doctrines wrong, so why are you doing the same thing to our doctrines?

      The key is in vs. 18--" I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works." That is the ONLY way we mere mortals have of ascertaining that someone's faith is genuine. God knows the heart better and more perfectly than we do.

      Tell me, can a DEAD faith enable a person to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? Yes or no?

      Was the faith of the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom a living or dead faith? If a person comes to believe in Jesus Christ on his deathbed and then dies before he can be baptized or do any works saved or unsaved?

      Please give me direct answers to these questions, instead of trying to deflect, or just repeating yourself. Thank you
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #18
        No ma'am, you keep conflating works with salvation. Paul makes clear we are saved by faith apart from works. That being said, our faith drives our works, not for salvation, but because we do the will of God. In other words, your position is that your salvation is based on yourself, not Christ. That's a problem. If that is your position then you have absolutely no assurance of your salvation.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post


          Thank you Thekla--for that forthcoming explanation.

          If that is so--then the Lutherans believe one is saved by grace--through a faith without works(dead faith):

          James 2:18-26 ---King James Version (KJV)
          18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
          19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
          20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
          21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
          22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
          23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
          24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
          25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
          26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

          Lutherans?
          Sorry I didn't respond db but a lot of Lutherans did for me. Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all. Without his calling us and giving us the Holy Spirit to give us faith we would remain lost. This is why we say we are saved by faith not works. We can not do good works if we do not believe in God.
          Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

          “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
          but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


          Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            What has any of this to do with my postulation the Lutherans preach one is saved through a faith without works?(dead faith)

            The Lutherans preach a faith alone doctrine in obtaining salvation--regardless of what kind of faith you or I believe the thief had, or what you believe one does IN faith, or who you believe enables us to do good works.

            The Lutherans preach obtaining eternal life without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ--period. Through a faith without works. That's dead faith--according to James:

            James 2:18-26--- King James Version (KJV)
            18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
            19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
            21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
            26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
            It has everything to do with it!

            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hodos View Post
              No ma'am, you keep conflating works with salvation. Paul makes clear we are saved by faith apart from works. That being said, our faith drives our works, not for salvation, but because we do the will of God. In other words, your position is that your salvation is based on yourself, not Christ. That's a problem. If that is your position then you have absolutely no assurance of your salvation.
              Hodos, dberrie is a man. Just an fyi. But i agree with your post, otherwise. As BJ has posted on here numerous times, IF our good works help to save save us, then that makes us the savior of us and not Jesus.
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all.
                Here is the statement by a Lutheran which confirms they believe one is saved through a dead faith.

                How many Lutherans agree with this?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Hodos View Post
                  No ma'am, you keep conflating works with salvation. Paul makes clear we are saved by faith apart from works.
                  Of course he did:

                  Galatians 5:19-21--- King James Version (KJV)
                  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
                  20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
                  21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hodos View Post No ma'am, you keep conflating works with salvation. Paul makes clear we are saved by faith apart from works.
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                    Of course he did:

                    Galatians 5:19-21--- King James Version (KJV)
                    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
                    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
                    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
                    While I agree--salvation is apart from the works of the Law( certain rituals under the Mosaic Law)--it is not apart from obeying the commandments.

                    Bump for Hodos--or any Lutheran

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      DBerry,
                      When are acts (works) of obedience not acts (works) of the law? Name one and explain why you think it is so?

                      Nic
                      1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
                      1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nic View Post
                        DBerry,
                        When are acts (works) of obedience not acts (works) of the law? Name one and explain why you think it is so?
                        Hi Nic--thanks for the question:

                        Here is an example of Paul differentiating between works of the Law--and the gospel:

                        1 Corinthians 7:19--- King James Version (KJV)
                        19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

                        Comment

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