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The Lutheran anomaly

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  • The Lutheran anomaly

    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post If 1John1:7 refers to "we"--then it is a reference to Christians, as it is a Christian who wrote it--and he included himself, as an inclusion-- to "we".
    The passage also has a condition to the Blood of Christ unto the forgiveness of sins:

    1 John 1:7 ----King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?
    Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
    You are correct, the writer was referring to Christians. When a Christian says he has fellowship with God and walks in darkness he lies and does not practice the truth.When a Christian walks in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You just connected works with the Blood of Jesus Christ. That defies faith alone theology. The Lutherans preach a theology where one cannot walk in the light until they are saved.

    Are you claiming one is saved prior to the Blood of Christ?
    I would like any Lutheran to explain this anomaly to me, please.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post






    I would like any Lutheran to explain this anomaly to me, please.
    Lets start with this....what is walking in the light? Can you present your definition so we're on the same page while we analyze this piece of scripture.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post






      I would like any Lutheran to explain this anomaly to me, please.
      When we believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, His blood then cleanses us from all sin. We then walk in the Light. Jesus Christ is the Light of the world. When we believe and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free, we are in the Light, for we are then in Christ Jesus and He is in us.

      The "anomaly" appears to be only in your own mind.
      Last edited by Bonnie; 12-08-18, 12:13 PM.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
        Lets start with this....what is walking in the light? Can you present your definition so we're on the same page while we analyze this piece of scripture.
        Hi Crow:

        Since the scriptures collate walking in the light with His Blood unto the remission of sins--then I would include this as walking in the lightbut not limited to this)

        Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
        39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
        40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
        41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
        42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          When we believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, His blood then cleanses us from all sin. We then walk in the Light.
          That's only comporting "walk in the Light" as an integral component to "believe in Jesus Christ".

          I agree. All the acts of obedience to Jesus Christ, that God would require--are integral components to faith in Jesus Christ. One could say, for instance--that keeping the commandments is faith in Christ. Repentance and water baptism, for the remission of sins--is faith in Jesus Christ.Obeying the doctrine is faith in Christ.

          Just as one's transmission could go out--and we take the car to a maintenance shop--we could either say they were working on the transmission--or ---they were working on the car. They are integral components to one another.

          One could have their roofs replaced--and they could say they are working on the house--they are integral components one to another.

          "Faith in Christ" is a catch-all term for anything which includes obedience to the gospel doctrines of Jesus Christ.

          Enduring to the end is faith in Christ:

          Matthew 10:22 ---King James Version (KJV)
          22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

          Magnifying our gifts is faith in Christ:


          Matthew 25:14-21--- King James Version (KJV)
          14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
          15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
          16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
          17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
          18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
          19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
          20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
          21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


          Comment


          • #6
            Hi DB,

            You've run into the same wall as you have with the other passages which you take out of context. The context this time is the Christian's fellowship with God and other Christians. The context is not how to become a Christian.

            Christians are the ones who are saved by grace through faith not works, created in Christ Jesus to do good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 paraphrase.
            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

            Peace,
            BJ -Bear
            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
            WELS

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
              Hi DB,

              You've run into the same wall as you have with the other passages which you take out of context. The context this time is the Christian's fellowship with God and other Christians. The context is not how to become a Christian.

              Christians are the ones who are saved by grace through faith not works, created in Christ Jesus to do good works. Ephesians 2:8-10 paraphrase.
              Hi BJ:

              I find the "out of context" is the usual taint so!!! argument those whose theology is violated by the scriptures--or their personal testimony--resort to.

              Taint so!!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling.

              Care to address the specific point of concern?

              Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post You are correct, the writer was referring to Christians. When a Christian says he has fellowship with God and walks in darkness he lies and does not practice the truth.When a Christian walks in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post You just connected works with the Blood of Jesus Christ. That defies faith alone theology. The Lutherans preach a theology where one cannot walk in the light until they are saved.
              Are you claiming one is saved prior to the Blood of Christ?


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                Hi BJ:

                I find the "out of context" is the usual taint so!!! argument those whose theology is violated by the scriptures--or their personal testimony--resort to.

                Taint so!!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling.

                Care to address the specific point of concern?
                I already addressed your point of concern but you don't accept it. Rather than receive the way in which Scripture presents faith and works you are insisting on imposing an alien context upon them.

                Again, the reason there is no conflict between Eph 2:8-10 and 1 John is that the passage is referring to Christians, those who have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. It is not referring to how a person becomes a Christian.
                Last edited by BJ BEAR; 12-08-18, 02:04 PM. Reason: Typo
                Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                Peace,
                BJ -Bear
                VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                WELS

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  Hi Crow:

                  Since the scriptures collate walking in the light with His Blood unto the remission of sins--then I would include this as walking in the lightbut not limited to this)

                  Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                  39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                  40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                  41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                  42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
                  Yes, you should be baptized because of your salvation. Many mistakenly use this verse to show one needs to be baptized to be saved....the mormons even say it has to be their mormon guy doing the baptism. A baptist preacher doesn't count...and your sins are not washed away if the baptist baptizes you. But the baptist say...I'm not counting on water to wash away my sins...the Bible says the blood of Jesus does that.

                  But how can one walk in the light with out being regenerated? Heck, John 6:65 says you have to be granted the ability to come to Jesus. You just can't jump into the light and start walking....you can't even tip-toe into the light and start walking. God has to put you there....as the blood of Christ cleanse you from ALL sins. All sins is past sins, present sins as well as future sins.

                  But I understand you don't have such confidence concerning your salvation. Don't you teach if you've walked in the light "enough"...what ever the amount of enough is...God might save you?

                  Tell me, how does it work? Is there grand heavenly scale that might tip in your favor if you've walked in the light enough? I see no security in your god.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                    Yes, you should be baptized because of your salvation.
                    The question being--does one inherit salvation prior to the remission of sins?

                    Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                    Many mistakenly use this verse to show one needs to be baptized to be saved....
                    I use it to show just what it demonstrates--God extends His grace to them which obey Him.

                    So--how does that differ from Luther's claim?


                    "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                    SOURCE:The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      The question being--does one inherit salvation prior to the remission of sins?

                      Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                      39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                      40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                      41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                      42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.



                      I use it to show just what it demonstrates--God extends His grace to them which obey Him.

                      So--how does that differ from Luther's claim?


                      "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                      SOURCE:The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
                      dberrie, please put away your cookbook bible.....this verse has been refuted long, long ago. In fact it's pretty much all you got. If baptism is so important..and required..why isn't the bible loaded with water baptism is a requirement verses? Why are people presented in Acts as being saved...then baptized? Why is it not mentioned when Jesus spoke John 3:16?

                      Keep in mind also...those in Acts 2:38 got baptized because of the remission of sins.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post


                        The question being--does one inherit salvation prior to the remission of sins?

                        Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                        39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                        40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                        41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                        42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                        I use it to show just what it demonstrates--God extends His grace to them which obey Him.

                        So--how does that differ from Luther's claim?

                        "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                        SOURCE:The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
                        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                        dberrie, please put away your cookbook bible...
                        What is there you consider as a "cookbook bible" about the above scriptures?

                        That it defies faith alone theology?

                        ..this verse has been refuted long, long ago.
                        I agree--you refuted it.

                        But those who believe the witness of the Biblical scriptures--they believe it.

                        Acts 22:16--- King James Version (KJV)
                        16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

                        "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

                        SOURCE:The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luthe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                          But those who believe the witness of the Biblical scriptures--they believe it.
                          Problem is, they often take scripture out of context..and assign another meaning to the witness of scripture....and et it wrong.

                          The question for you...and perhaps you could clear up your contradiction...which washes away sin...the blood of Christ or water? Can't be both.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                            That's only comporting "walk in the Light" as an integral component to "believe in Jesus Christ".

                            I agree. All the acts of obedience to Jesus Christ, that God would require--are integral components to faith in Jesus Christ. One could say, for instance--that keeping the commandments is faith in Christ. Repentance and water baptism, for the remission of sins--is faith in Jesus Christ.Obeying the doctrine is faith in Christ.

                            Just as one's transmission could go out--and we take the car to a maintenance shop--we could either say they were working on the transmission--or ---they were working on the car. They are integral components to one another.

                            One could have their roofs replaced--and they could say they are working on the house--they are integral components one to another.

                            "Faith in Christ" is a catch-all term for anything which includes obedience to the gospel doctrines of Jesus Christ.

                            Enduring to the end is faith in Christ:

                            Matthew 10:22 ---King James Version (KJV)
                            22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

                            Magnifying our gifts is faith in Christ:


                            Matthew 25:14-21--- King James Version (KJV)
                            14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
                            15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
                            16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
                            17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
                            18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
                            19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
                            20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
                            21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

                            So? What is wrong with comporting walking in the light with believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? Is He not the Light of the world?

                            (NASB, Is. 9)

                            2 [c]The people who walk in darkness
                            Will see a great light;
                            Those who live in a dark land,
                            The light will shine on them.
                            3 You shall multiply the nation,
                            You shall [d]increase [e]their gladness;
                            They will be glad in Your presence
                            As with the gladness [f]of harvest,
                            As [g]men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
                            4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders,
                            The rod of their oppressor, as [h]at the battle of Midian.
                            5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult,
                            And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire.
                            6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
                            And the government will [i]rest on His shoulders;
                            And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
                            Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
                            7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
                            On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
                            To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
                            From then on and forevermore.
                            The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.
                            And

                            (John 1, NASB)
                            1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [b]comprehend it. The Witness John

                            6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

                            9 There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [i]born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

                            Those without Jesus are in spiritual darkness. That darkness can only be dispelled by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord--the true One of the Bible, not the false Jesus of pseudo-Christian cults. For Jesus is the Light of the World, for Jesus only saves us.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                              So? What is wrong with comporting walking in the light with believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior? Is He not the Light of the world?
                              Absolutely nothing. They are integral components one to another.

                              And that is my point--the Lutherans separate out the components one from another in obtaining salvation--that is what faith alone theology is--a faith which is alone in obtaining salvation.

                              A dead faith.

                              Which dead faith--the Lutherans preach one obtains salvation through.

                              Those without Jesus are in spiritual darkness.
                              I agree:

                              2 John 9 --King James Version (KJV)
                              9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

                              That connects works and having God.

                              If one "hath not God" if they don't abide in the doctrine--then why do the Lutherans preach one can only obey God AFTER they are saved? IOW--obtaining salvation prior to obeying the doctrine.

                              You do preach one obeys God BECAUSE they have been saved?

                              Bonnie--the Biblical text has works (acts of obedience to Jesus Christ) on both sides of salvation.

                              Comment

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