Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

"IN salvation, not FOR salvation"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "IN salvation, not FOR salvation"

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    Your point is "pointless." For we teach that a true and living faith ALWAYS leads to doing good works. But they are one IN salvation, not FOR salvation.
    Could someone here please explain for us what the difference is between "in salvation" and "for salvation"?

    IOW--is this a testimony those who repented and were baptized--did so for the remission of sins--or in the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  • #2
    [QUOTE=dberrie2000;n5720212]

    Could someone here please explain for us what the difference is between "in salvation" and "for salvation"?

    "FOR SALVATION" = in order to be SAVED, as though salvation were something to be EARNED as a wage.

    "IN SALVATION" = indicates that those WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED will manifest, BECAUSE of their Salvation, Works of righteousness.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

      Could someone here please explain for us what the difference is between "in salvation" and "for salvation"?

      IOW--is this a testimony those who repented and were baptized--did so for the remission of sins--or in the remission of sins?

      Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
      I thought to was pretty clear...some work FOR salvation...and always fail...while those who are saved work to give God glory...those people are IN salvation. That is they have salvation and are not working to save their butts in a selfish manner.

      dberrie2000, it's been explained to you several times..why is it you can't grasp the concept?

      dberrie2000, just how much work does one have to do to get saved?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

        "FOR SALVATION" = in order to be SAVED, as though salvation were something to be EARNED as a wage.

        "IN SALVATION" = indicates that those WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED will manifest, BECAUSE of their Salvation, Works of righteousness.
        So--were those who repented and were water baptized--did they "earn" the remission of sins?

        Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
        38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

        If they did not earn it--why did God extend His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them?

        Also--were they saved prior to the remission of sins?

        "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..."
        SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
          I thought to was pretty clear...some work FOR salvation...and always fail...
          Would this be an example of that?

          Revelation 22:14--- King James Version (KJV)
          14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

          So--are those who keep the commandments working for salvation?

          Did those who did good--do so because they were working for salvation?

          John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


          The problem present in your approach, IMO--is that God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works--regardless of what you believe their motivations are.

          That defies faith alone theology--and of the analysis on motivation--bears no sway to that fact, and becomes only a diversion to that reality.

          First--the Lutherans are going to have to answer the question as to why God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works, especially since they are preaching God gives His salvation to them PRIOR to acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

          Quite the anomaly, IMO.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
            ear

            Could someone here please explain for us what the difference is between "in salvation" and "for salvation"?

            IOW--is this a testimony those who repented and were baptized--did so for the remission of sins--or in the remission of sins?

            Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
            38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
            Really? IN salvation means we do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved or FOR salvation. We are already saved by grace through faith and not by our works, but because we are saved, we are able to bear fruit pleasing to God, for "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." (Heb. 11:6)

            Which comes first, dberrie--faith or good works?
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

              Would this be an example of that?

              Revelation 22:14--- King James Version (KJV)
              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

              So--are those who keep the commandments working for salvation?

              Did those who did good--do so because they were working for salvation?

              John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
              28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
              29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


              The problem present in your approach, IMO--is that God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works--regardless of what you believe their motivations are.

              That defies faith alone theology--and of the analysis on motivation--bears no sway to that fact, and becomes only a diversion to that reality.

              First--the Lutherans are going to have to answer the question as to why God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works, especially since they are preaching God gives His salvation to them PRIOR to acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

              Quite the anomaly, IMO.
              The righteous demands of the Law are fulfilled in us when we walk in Christ Jesus our Lord:

              Romans 8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

              Deliverance from Bondage

              8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

              9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [d]alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [e]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
              When we walk in faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, we walk in the Spirit and then the "requirement of the Law" is fuflilled in us by that very same faith. As Paul also wrote:

              Romans 4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

              Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament

              4 What then shall we say that Abraham, [a]our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified [b]by works, he has something to boast about, but not [c]before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

              7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
              And whose sins have been covered.
              8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
              And that faith in Christ Jesus our Lord enables us to bear fruit pleasing to God, to obey Him, and to want to do what is right, out of love for what our Savior did for us on the cross. Simple.

              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                Really? IN salvation means we do good works BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved or FOR salvation.
                So--were these saved prior to the remission of sins?

                Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                We are already saved by grace through faith and not by our works, but because we are saved, we are able to bear fruit pleasing to God,
                Then why the witness which connects the fruits with life?

                Matthew 7:19-21--- King James Version (KJV)
                19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
                20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
                21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

                If one cannot enter into heaven without the fruits--then why are you preaching one obtains salvation independent of fruit?

                for "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." (Heb. 11:6)

                Which comes first, dberrie--faith or good works?
                I don't separate the two, Bonnie, nor do I play the sequence game. I'll leave that to the Lutherans. I believe faith and works are integral components to one another--and so does the Biblical writers:

                James 2:18-26 ----King James Version (KJV)
                18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
                19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
                21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
                22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
                23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, andnot by faith only.
                25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
                26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  The righteous demands of the Law are fulfilled in us when we walk in Christ Jesus our Lord:
                  That only connects the walk with righteousness.

                  When we walk in faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, we walk in the Spirit and then the "requirement of the Law" is fuflilled in us by that very same faith. As Paul also wrote:

                  And that faith in Christ Jesus our Lord enables us to bear fruit pleasing to God, to obey Him, and to want to do what is right, out of love for what our Savior did for us on the cross. Simple.[/QUOTE]

                  That still connects the fruit with "pleasing... God".

                  So--can one enter into life without pleasing God?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    That only connects the walk with righteousness.

                    When we walk in faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, we walk in the Spirit and then the "requirement of the Law" is fuflilled in us by that very same faith. As Paul also wrote:

                    And that faith in Christ Jesus our Lord enables us to bear fruit pleasing to God, to obey Him, and to want to do what is right, out of love for what our Savior did for us on the cross. Simple.
                    That still connects the fruit with "pleasing... God".

                    So--can one enter into life without pleasing God?[/QUOTE]

                    That is your standard response whenever we answer you about this. Of course they are connected but that doesn't mean that works have the same function in salvation as grace and faith do. The fruit we produce IN faith IS pleasing to God, and is the RESULT OF FAITH, since Heb. 11:6 says that WITHOUT FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE--not difficult, but IMPOSSIBLE--to please God.

                    The new guy, Hodos, explained it very well here:

                    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...538-dead-faith

                    Post no. 14.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      Would this be an example of that?

                      Revelation 22:14--- King James Version (KJV)
                      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      So--are those who keep the commandments working for salvation?

                      Did those who did good--do so because they were working for salvation?
                      OK, lets back it up a bit...What are the commandments talked about ere?

                      John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                      28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                      29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                      The problem present in your approach, IMO--is that God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works--regardless of what you believe their motivations are.

                      That defies faith alone theology--and of the analysis on motivation--bears no sway to that fact, and becomes only a diversion to that reality.

                      First--the Lutherans are going to have to answer the question as to why God is extending His salvational grace to them which do His works, especially since they are preaching God gives His salvation to them PRIOR to acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

                      Quite the anomaly, IMO.
                      Your problem is this....you already have done evil. You do know that? How does that verse speak to you in that context...you've already done evil? It sounds like you're going to hell.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        And that faith in Christ Jesus our Lord enables us to bear fruit pleasing to God, to obey Him, and to want to do what is right, out of love for what our Savior did for us on the cross. Simple
                        The one you are talking about is already saved...As you pointed out their works are not performed to become saved. If it was then their works would be selfish.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                          So--were those who repented and were water baptized--did they "earn" the remission of sins?
                          Nope.

                          If they did not earn it--why did God extend His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them?
                          Did you ever read Romans 9?? Give it a try - some GOOD information for you there.

                          Also--were they saved prior to the remission of sins?
                          No.

                          "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..."
                          SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther[/URL]
                          Just another sign of Luther's "Catholic Carryover". But he WAS ABSOLUTELY right about salvation being by FAITH (which the Catholic Church had forgotten)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                            Nope.



                            Did you ever read Romans 9?? Give it a try - some GOOD information for you there.



                            No.



                            Just another sign of Luther's "Catholic Carryover". But he WAS ABSOLUTELY right about salvation being by FAITH (which the Catholic Church had forgotten)
                            We have a book called WHAT LUTHER SAYS and in the heading on Baptism, Luther states something like "Though baptism does now save us it is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Faith is. And one is saved who dies in faith in Christ Jesus even if he is UNable to be baptized. But we should not despise this means of grace that Jesus has given us."

                            I would have to track down the exact quote, though. Or I may be conflating two quotes.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                              The one you are talking about is already saved...As you pointed out their works are not performed to become saved. If it was then their works would be selfish.
                              Actually, I wrote that. The quote function is messed up, sometimes.
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X