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No faith at all?

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  • No faith at all?

    Originally posted by Thekla View Post
    Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all.
    Here is the statement by a Lutheran which confirms they believe one is saved through a dead faith--or no faith at all.

    How many Lutherans agree with this?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Thekla View Post Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all.
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Here is the statement by a Lutheran which confirms they believe one is saved through a dead faith--or no faith at all.

    How many Lutherans agree with this?
    Bump for all Lutherans.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thekla View Post Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all.
      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Here is the statement by a Lutheran which confirms they believe one is saved through a dead faith--or no faith at all.
      How many Lutherans agree with this?


      Would any Lutheran care to explain this?



      Comment


      • #4

        Originally posted by Thekla View Post Before we are saved we have dead faith or even worse, no faith in God at all.
        Can this be verified as Lutheran theology?

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi DB,
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

          Would any Lutheran care to explain this?
          Yes, I would. Faith is faith whether a person believes he will wake up tomorrow, get a better job, or have another beer. All that faith is dead faith as it does not have the incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord for all men as it's content or object.

          The faith through which men are saved comes by the revelation of the love of God in Christ Jesus for them. In other words, it is a faith given to them by God. That faith has no merit garnered by the believer, no work of the believer, as it is a gift freely given. Again, see Ephesians 2 or one of the many other passages provided to you.

          Thank you for asking.
          Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

          Peace,
          BJ -Bear
          VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
          WELS

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
            Hi DB,

            Yes, I would. Faith is faith whether a person believes he will wake up tomorrow, get a better job, or have another beer. All that faith is dead faith as it does not have the incarnate, crucified, and risen Lord for all men as it's content or object.

            The faith through which men are saved comes by the revelation of the love of God in Christ Jesus for them. In other words, it is a faith given to them by God. That faith has no merit garnered by the believer, no work of the believer, as it is a gift freely given. Again, see Ephesians 2 or one of the many other passages provided to you.

            Thank you for asking.
            Hi BJ:

            When you state--"no work of the believer"---then you are referring to a faith without works?



            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

              Hi BJ:

              When you state--"no work of the believer"---then you are referring to a faith without works?
              I am referring to the faith which God gives in the true Christ. The true Christ is not our work.
              Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

              Peace,
              BJ -Bear
              VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
              WELS

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post
                I am referring to the faith which God gives in the true Christ. The true Christ is not our work.
                But all men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation:

                John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                How does one fit that into faith alone theology?



                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  But all men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation:

                  John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                  28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                  29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                  2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                  10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                  Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                  27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                  Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                  5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                  6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                  7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                  8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                  9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                  10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                  11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
                  1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                  16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                  17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                  How does one fit that into faith alone theology?


                  John 6: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
                  29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


                  This is what we believe is the work we are judged on. We do good works. Not because we think they will save us but because we love God and desire to serve Him.

                  Those who do good works because they believe that if they don't do them they will not be saved, are not giving the glory of salvation to God the Father and Christ but to themselves.

                  Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                  “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                  but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                  Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Thekla View Post

                    John 6: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
                    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


                    This is what we believe is the work we are judged on. We do good works. Not because we think they will save us but because we love God and desire to serve Him.

                    Those who do good works because they believe that if they don't do them they will not be saved, are not giving the glory of salvation to God the Father and Christ but to themselves.
                    ...and they are doing them for selfish reasons and there is no love in selfishness. We do our good works BECAUSE we are already saved, not to GET saved. But works righteous sorts just do not understand this.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thekla View Post
                      John 6: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
                      29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


                      This is what we believe is the work we are judged on. We do good works. Not because we think they will save us but because we love God and desire to serve Him.

                      Those who do good works because they believe that if they don't do them they will not be saved, are not giving the glory of salvation to God the Father and Christ but to themselves.
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      ...and they are doing them for selfish reasons and there is no love in selfishness. We do our good works BECAUSE we are already saved, not to GET saved. But works righteous sorts just do not understand this.
                      Could either Bonnie or Thekla explain for us how their explanation of the motive for obeying God--somehow covers up or cancels out the testimony all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

                      John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                      28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                      29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                      2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                      10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                      Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                      27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                      Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                      5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                      6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                      7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                      8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                      9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                      10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                      11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

                      1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                      16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                      17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                      IOW--your point in the motivation of doing good--only adds another condition to inheriting eternal life--it does nothing to annul the fact all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                        Could either Bonnie or Thekla explain for us how their explanation of the motive for obeying God--somehow covers up or cancels out the testimony all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

                        John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                        28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                        29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                        2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                        10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                        Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                        27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                        Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                        5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                        6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                        7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                        8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                        9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                        10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                        11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

                        1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                        16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                        17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                        IOW--your point in the motivation of doing good--only adds another condition to inheriting eternal life--it does nothing to annul the fact all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.
                        Bump for Bonnie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



                          Could either Bonnie or Thekla explain for us how their explanation of the motive for obeying God--somehow covers up or cancels out the testimony all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

                          John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
                          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                          2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
                          10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                          Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
                          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

                          Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
                          5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
                          6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
                          7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
                          8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
                          9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
                          10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
                          11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

                          1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
                          16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
                          17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

                          IOW--your point in the motivation of doing good--only adds another condition to inheriting eternal life--it does nothing to annul the fact all men will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.
                          We will be judged for our good works. However, we will have no bad works. Our sins have been forgiven and removed as far as the east is from the west. We do not do good works to earn God's grace. We do them because God has given us his grace and we love him. He is our father. We obey him as children because we love him.
                          Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

                          “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
                          but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


                          Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Thekla View Post

                            We will be judged for our good works. However, we will have no bad works. Our sins have been forgiven and removed as far as the east is from the west. We do not do good works to earn God's grace. We do them because God has given us his grace and we love him. He is our father. We obey him as children because we love him.
                            Good point!

                            And all our works will be perfected in Christ Jesus, when we are saved by grace through faith in Him.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                              Here is the statement by a Lutheran which confirms they believe one is saved through a dead faith--or no faith at all.

                              How many Lutherans agree with this?
                              Can you even READ ENGLISH?????

                              Comment

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