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LCMS,Young Earh

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post
    For those of you who believe in a young earth/universe, how do you believe when most of the evidence goes in the other direction?
    I look back at the last 2000 years and see how the scientists have changed what they taught. Like there is gravity, we don't float up into the sky because we are light. I believe in the Biblical 6 days. I also believe that science will get the results after creation. So like I've said, Adam and Eve were created older than a baby.

    Genesis 1: 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

    11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

    14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


    So look at this, God created the seas, and vegetation on the third day. He created the sun and moon and stars on the 4th day.
    Do scientists believe that vegetation can grow without the sun? I sort of doubt it, but I don't have a problem with it. I think that vegetation and mankind can live under the light of God.
    Revelation 21: 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

    I don't think that scientists could prove this according to what they believe.
    Mark 9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things,
    but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther


    Muretus "Call no man worthless for whom Christ died!"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Nic View Post
      Good morning Faith.
      ​​​​​
      How do you believe in the resurrection of the dead if the most of the evidence goes against it?

      Nic
      Because of the multitudes of eyewitnesses.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post

        Because of the multitudes of eyewitnesses.
        Hi Faith, thank you for your reply. I had in mind the general resurrection. Most of those folks to the best of my knowledge are still lying in wait, so to speak. That would go along with the idea that most of the evidence goes against it.
        If you want to address that then fine, if you rather me toss a different question I'll pull one from my prior post. How do you know real presence in the sacrament is true? As far as I know there is no emperical evidence that gives us any clues beyond its appearance. So presuming you still value real presence eucharistic theology, how is that if the empirical evidence goes against it?

        Thanks,
        Nic
        1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
        1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Nic View Post

          Hi Faith, thank you for your reply. I had in mind the general resurrection. Most of those folks to the best of my knowledge are still lying in wait, so to speak. That would go along with the idea that most of the evidence goes against it.
          If you want to address that then fine, if you rather me toss a different question I'll pull one from my prior post. How do you know real presence in the sacrament is true? As far as I know there is no emperical evidence that gives us any clues beyond its appearance. So presuming you still value real presence eucharistic theology, how is that if the empirical evidence goes against it?

          Thanks,
          Nic
          I’ll admit I have a hard time with the idea of resurrection of the dead, but I just accept it.

          As far as the Real Presence, I guess it’s twofold. It’s what I was taught and Eucharistic Miracles, though i think it’s been said on another sub forum here that EMs are caused by Satan, which I don’t believe.
          Last edited by Faith1960; 02-19-19, 12:25 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post

            I’ll admit I have a hard time with the idea of resurrection of the dead, but I just accept it.

            As far as the Real Presence, I guess it’s twofold. It’s what I was taught and Eucharistic Miracles, though i think it’s been said on another sub forum here that EMs are caused by Satan, which I don’t believe.
            Well Faith, I'd like to thank you once again for this dialog. It seems I end up with more questions, but I really do appreciate your willingness to state things freely in the open. I think that's commendable.

            The type of response I was seeking for the types of questions I asked were along the lines of "by matters of faith." Sometimes you'll hear a Christian state something that I equate to the same thing when they repeat scripture and say, "God said it, therefore I believe it." I hoping to see you connect a few dots of statements in scripture and matters of faith. (Aside: Sometimes even atheistic or agnostic scientists have faith too, just not in the God of all creation, but they exercise faith in their beliefs in often providing their perspectives. But you may already be aware of this.)

            You penned another thread "Help With Unbelief," I haven't read through all those replies but faith comes by hearing the word of God. Bear in mind faith is a freely given gift, but without being under the influence of the word of God, it wanes.
            In today's age there are all types of methods to imbibe God's word. (Eg.​​ Reading, listening, etc.) As I said elsewhere, you should read whichever gospel you are likely to read. Lot's of people suggest John's and that's fine but it is more lengthy than the others. The message saves.

            To Add:
            You mentioned concerning the eucharist that you were taught. I think it's important to note how disciples (pupils) are made.
            Matthew 28:18-20
            And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
            Note the command is two-fold baptizing and teaching.
            Being taught, listening to sermons, podcasts, videos are all additional modalities to get the word of God in you. The word of God is the primary source.
            I once had an MP3 player and I'd listen to teachings, sermons, history, etc. I had the bible on cassette years ago and I played the scriptures in my vehicle. There are many avenues today please take advantage of as many as you can.

            Also forgive me if you already take advantage of these things.

            Nic
            ​​​​​​
            Last edited by Nic; 02-19-19, 04:01 AM.
            1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
            1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

            Comment


            • #21
              <<<<<<<<The Bible
              Age of the earth
              Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?
              A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is. Nor is it the Synod's position that everything in the Bible is to be understood "literally." There is much in the Bible that clearly purports not to be understood literally--but this must be determined by the Bible itself, not by science or human reason. There is nothing in the Bible itself to suggest that the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.
              The Synod has affirmed the belief, therefore, based on Scripture's account of creation in the book of Genesis and other clear passages of Scripture, that "God by the almighty power of His Word created all things in six days by a series of creative acts," that "Adam and Eve were real, historical human beings, the first two people in the world," and that "we must confess what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12" about the origin of sin through Adam as described in Genesis 3 (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31). The Synod has also, therefore, stated that it rejects "all those world views, philosophical theories, exegetical interpretations and other hypotheses which pervert these biblical teachings and thus obscure the Gospel" (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31).
              At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.)
              Numerous books are available that discuss these issues in more detail. One of these is Studies in Creation by John Klotz (1985), available by contacting Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040 or www.cph.org), and asking for stock no. 12-3004.
              Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion. Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
              ©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
              1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295 888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs>>>>>>>>


              This is a Q and A on a Lutheran LCMS site. It’s confusing because it says that the LCMS doesn’t have an official position in a young earth, but then it says that there’s nothing in the Bible itself to suggest the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.

              Isnt this a contradiction? So are LCMS free to believe in an old universe/earth or is there the pressure to believe they are young?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post

                I’ll admit I have a hard time with the idea of resurrection of the dead, but I just accept it.
                Well, if you accept that the first verse of the Bible as true, then the Father resurrecting Jesus from the dead is a "piece of cake."
                Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post
                  <<<<<<<<The Bible
                  Age of the earth
                  Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?
                  A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is. Nor is it the Synod's position that everything in the Bible is to be understood "literally." There is much in the Bible that clearly purports not to be understood literally--but this must be determined by the Bible itself, not by science or human reason. There is nothing in the Bible itself to suggest that the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.
                  The Synod has affirmed the belief, therefore, based on Scripture's account of creation in the book of Genesis and other clear passages of Scripture, that "God by the almighty power of His Word created all things in six days by a series of creative acts," that "Adam and Eve were real, historical human beings, the first two people in the world," and that "we must confess what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12" about the origin of sin through Adam as described in Genesis 3 (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31). The Synod has also, therefore, stated that it rejects "all those world views, philosophical theories, exegetical interpretations and other hypotheses which pervert these biblical teachings and thus obscure the Gospel" (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31).
                  At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.)
                  Numerous books are available that discuss these issues in more detail. One of these is Studies in Creation by John Klotz (1985), available by contacting Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040 or www.cph.org), and asking for stock no. 12-3004.
                  Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion. Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
                  ©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
                  1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295 888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs>>>>>>>>


                  This is a Q and A on a Lutheran LCMS site. It’s confusing because it says that the LCMS doesn’t have an official position in a young earth, but then it says that there’s nothing in the Bible itself to suggest the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.

                  Isnt this a contradiction? So are LCMS free to believe in an old universe/earth or is there the pressure to believe they are young?
                  Anyone?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Faith, recall what you said about just accepting the resurrection of the dead. Well to me and I could be wrong for no one sees faith except God alone, but that statement on its face value sounds like a given measure of faith in trusting that the hard to believe and against all natural reasoning, will indeed or has come to pass. That to me is a picture of what faith can look like. It by default doesn't necessitate the presence of true faith, nor does it rule it out. Faith is a freely given gift from God, apart from his bestowed message and the power of the Holy Spirit (all man are DEAD in their sins and without hearing then believe that God came to save the ungodly while they were yet sinners, Christ died For US!) there is no true faith. His gospel message that saves is given freely through his word and sacrament for the forgiveness of sins. If the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world has your sins, then you no longer do.
                    Personally and seemingly as you do with the resurrection of the dead, I just accept the creation account as true. I have no doubts about it. A Lutheran at least, if not all Christians, should read God's word with Christ and his saving work through the redemptive work of the cross in view. We should read the scriptures foregoing questions about how this verse speaks or instructs me and instead ask questions like, 'Where is Christ in this pericope?' Or "How does Christ's finished work (forgiveness of sins) impact the understanding of what you just read.

                    Nic
                    Last edited by Nic; 02-23-19, 02:27 PM.
                    1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
                    1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      <<<<<<<<This is a Q and A on a Lutheran LCMS site. It’s confusing because it says that the LCMS doesn’t have an official position in a young earth, but then it says that there’s nothing in the Bible itself to suggest the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.

                      Isnt this a contradiction? So are LCMS free to believe in an old universe/earth or is there the pressure to believe they are young?>>>>>>>>>
                      <<<<<<<<. Anyone?>>>>>>


                      ????????

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post
                        <<<<<<<<This is a Q and A on a Lutheran LCMS site. It’s confusing because it says that the LCMS doesn’t have an official position in a young earth, but then it says that there’s nothing in the Bible itself to suggest the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.

                        Isnt this a contradiction? So are LCMS free to believe in an old universe/earth or is there the pressure to believe they are young?>>>>>>>>>
                        <<<<<<<<. Anyone?>>>>>>


                        ????????
                        I'm not reading a contradiction.
                        Let me see if I can clarify what I'm reading above for you.

                        The first part says there is no official position.
                        The second part explains there are no grammatical cues in order to justify taking things figuratively.
                        So one statement reflect the position of the church, which is none. The second statement looks at that section of scriptures and comments on the grammatical structure. Two completely different things:
                        1) a position of the church,
                        2) for whats it's worth, examining the grammar.

                        Previously I stated you only have to be in accord with Luther's Small Catechism. Where I was less than specific is that all you have to do is agree with the teachings therein. Any other concerns are really best for you to talk over with the pastor. After all the pastor is the gatekeeper of the assembly in an official capacity.

                        Nic
                        Last edited by Nic; 02-25-19, 01:25 AM.
                        1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
                        1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nic View Post
                          I'm not reading a contradiction.
                          Let me see if I can clarify what I'm reading above for you.

                          The first part says there is no official position.
                          The second part explains there are no grammatical cues in order to justify taking things figuratively.
                          So one statement reflect the position of the church, which is none. The second statement looks at that section of scriptures and comments on the grammatical structure. Two completely different things:
                          1) a position of the church,
                          2) for whats it's worth, examining the grammar.

                          Previously I stated you only have to be in accord with Luther's Small Catechism. Where I was less than specific is that all you have to do is agree with the teachings therein. Any other concerns are really best for you to talk over with the pastor. After all the pastor is the gatekeeper of the assembly in an official capacity.

                          Nic

                          i sent an email to the pastor I’ve been talking with, as well as another guy I’ve been talking to who is on their staff. Waiting for their responses.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post


                            i sent an email to the pastor I’ve been talking with, as well as another guy I’ve been talking to who is on their staff. Waiting for their responses.
                            Good deal. I hope you get your results soon and I hope you can rest in peace over this thing that has become an obstacle for you for whatever reason.
                            1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
                            1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Faith1960 View Post
                              For those of you who believe in a young earth/universe, how do you believe when most of the evidence goes in the other direction?
                              I am WELS rather than LCMS but I think people sometimes look at the question in a backwards manner. That is to say they are viewing the matter as if God did not create all things.

                              If a person considers Adam as if God didn't create him then he might reason that it takes X amount of years to be a grown man so how can anyone believe he was created a man? The answer of course is that God created him a man.

                              I don't know what all might fall into the category of "young earth" but I do know that God created all things as he desired.
                              Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                              Peace,
                              BJ -Bear
                              VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                              WELS

                              Comment

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