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"Faith"

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  • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    The salvation "transaction" is that we have faith, and God gives us salvation as a result of that faith.
    Is this an example of that faith?

    Matthew 25:31-46 ---King James Version (KJV)
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
      The works are still there, but (listen carefully) DO NOT CONTRIBUTE to our salvation.
      The works are the "fruits" of our faith, the testimony that our faith is authentic.
      But our works are NOT salvific.
      The Savior connected the fruits and obedience to the Kingdom of heaven:

      Matthew 7:19-21--- King James Version (KJV)
      19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
      20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

        dberrie, this question has been answered for you HUNDREDS of times in the Mormonism forum.
        You just don't like the answer.

        There are COUNTLESS passages which tell us that we are saved by faith, and "NOT BY WORKS" (eg. Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.). But of course, since you are a Mormon, you have to IGNORE all those passages, since they contradict the false teachings of Mormonism.

        The salvation "transaction" is that we have faith, and God gives us salvation as a result of that faith.
        Now, someone who has a true faith WILL have works as well, but those works do NOT contribute to our salvation.
        ONLY OUR FAITH contributed to our salvation.
        The works are still there, but (listen carefully) DO NOT CONTRIBUTE to our salvation.
        The works are the "fruits" of our faith, the testimony that our faith is authentic.
        But our works are NOT salvific.

        Notice where our works come into play:
        :
        Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
        and that not of yourselves:
        it is the gift of God:
        We are saved "through faith"
        9 Not of works,
        lest any man should boast.
        "Not of works".
        We aren't saved by works.
        We aren't saved by
        "faith and works".
        We are saved by faith NOT works.
        10 For we are his workmanship,
        created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
        which God hath before ordained
        that we should walk in them.
        Now that we are saved,
        now that we are "in Christ",
        NOW we do works.
        NOW the works come into play.
        The works come as a RESULT
        of our salvation, not as some
        "prerequisite" to salvation.
        :
        Now, since we are in the "Lutheran" forum, allow me to share a quote claimed to have come from Martin Luther himself:

        "We are saved by faith alone;
        But a faith that saves is never alone".

        Hopefully, by comparing that to Eph. 2:8-10, you can properly understand it.
        You refuted yourself with the scripture....]10 For we are his workmanship,
        created in Christ Jesus unto good works,.if....in the process of salvation one is created unto good works...it means that no good works.... equates no salvation.. just as Jesus cursed the tree that had no fruits... those who did no good works will burn...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by newbirth View Post

          You refuted yourself with the scripture....]10 For we are his workmanship,
          created in Christ Jesus unto good works,.if....in the process of salvation one is created unto good works...it means that no good works.... equates no salvation.. just as Jesus cursed the tree that had no fruits... those who did no good works will burn...
          No, there is no self refutation in the post to which you replied. The verb translated as, "should walk" is an indicator of purpose. In other words, the faithful are not created in Christ Jesus to sit on their hsnds or to sin.
          Last edited by BJ BEAR; 09-10-19, 10:47 AM. Reason: typo
          Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

          Peace,
          BJ -Bear
          VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
          WELS

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            Could you give us, say--ten passages which testify one is saved by faith?
            What does "believe in" mean?
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

              The Savior connected the fruits and obedience to the Kingdom of heaven:

              Matthew 7:19-21--- King James Version (KJV)
              19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
              20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
              21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
              HOW do we bear good fruit--when CONNECTED to the Vine--Jesus Christ--or severed from the Vine? Remember Jesus said "apart from Me, you can do NOTHING."

              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

              Comment


              • Originally posted by newbirth View Post

                You refuted yourself with the scripture....]10 For we are his workmanship,
                created in Christ Jesus unto good works,.if....in the process of salvation one is created unto good works...it means that no good works.... equates no salvation.. just as Jesus cursed the tree that had no fruits... those who did no good works will burn...
                No, Theo didn't refute himself.

                What does it mean to be CREATED IN Christ Jesus? And to walk in doing good works? WHO enables us to DO so?
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                  No, Theo didn't refute himself.
                  Just saying so does not make it so... you have to rebut my comment

                  What does it mean to be CREATED IN Christ Jesus? And to walk in doing good works?
                  just what it says... you become a new creature... and you should live a righteous life...

                  WHO enables us to DO so?
                  the holy Spirit/ helper... but you have to be the new creature and you have to live righteous...no one is doing it for you... you have to work out your own salvation...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by newbirth View Post
                    Just saying so does not make it so... you have to rebut my comment

                    just what it says... you become a new creature... and you should live a righteous life...

                    the holy Spirit/ helper... but you have to be the new creature and you have to live righteous...no one is doing it for you... you have to work out your own salvation...
                    for WHOSE handiwork/workmanship are we? In other words WHO gets credit for making us a new creation in Christ Jesus and doing good works?

                    But WHO makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus? WHO enables us to live a righteous life? Is it by our own power? OR by Something or Someone else? Paul knew:

                    1 Corinthians 15:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)


                    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
                    So, HOW and BY WHAT are we able to do what God approves of and serve Him and others in Christ Jesus our Lord?
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                      for WHOSE handiwork/workmanship are we? In other words WHO gets credit for making us a new creation in Christ Jesus and doing good works?[
                      God gets all the glory...so what??

                      But WHO makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus? WHO enables us to live a righteous life? Is it by our own power? OR by Something or Someone else? Paul knew:
                      [
                      I answered that twice... Jesus gave the father all the glory...it doesn't change the fact that it was Jesus who was beaten and spat upon...

                      So, HOW and BY WHAT are we able to do what God approves of and serve Him and others in Christ Jesus our Lord?
                      You keep asking the same question with different words... Jesus promised us a helper...every workman knows the helper only helps they don't do the bulk of the work... neither does the helper get more pay that the workman...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by newbirth View Post
                        God gets all the glory...so what??

                        I answered that twice... Jesus gave the father all the glory...it doesn't change the fact that it was Jesus who was beaten and spat upon...


                        You keep asking the same question with different words... Jesus promised us a helper...every workman knows the helper only helps they don't do the bulk of the work... neither does the helper get more pay that the workman...
                        It seems you are confusing categories as we are not the true Jesus so unlike Him the true Christians don't have a righteousness of their own. The true Jesus has been made our justification, sanctification, and wisdom from God through faith alone, 1 Cor 1:31.
                        Last edited by BJ BEAR; 09-10-19, 05:55 PM. Reason: specificity
                        Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                        Peace,
                        BJ -Bear
                        VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                        WELS

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BJ BEAR View Post

                          It seems you are confusing categories as we are not the true Jesus so unlike Him the true Christians don't have a righteousness of their own. The true Jesus has been made our justification, sanctification, and wisdom from God through faith alone, 1 Cor 1:31.
                          Me confusing categories??? You just babbled confusion...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by newbirth View Post
                            Me confusing categories??? You just babbled confusion...
                            If Christ is not one's justification, sanctification, and wisdom before God unto eternal life through faith alone then one doesn''t have any before God and only condemnation awaits.

                            There isn't a new birth without the death of the old
                            Test all things and praise God from whom all blessings flow!

                            Peace,
                            BJ -Bear
                            VDMA (1 Peter 1:25)
                            WELS

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by newbirth View Post
                              God gets all the glory...so what??

                              I answered that twice... Jesus gave the father all the glory...it doesn't change the fact that it was Jesus who was beaten and spat upon...


                              You keep asking the same question with different words... Jesus promised us a helper...every workman knows the helper only helps they don't do the bulk of the work... neither does the helper get more pay that the workman...
                              Exactly. God gets not only ALL the glory but ALL THE CREDIT for saving us, making us a new creation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and enabling us to DO good works as a result of that faith. NOT us. We don't help for we are helpless to do anything to please God without faith in His Son. But we do them IN faith in Jesus Christ; IN salvation in Jesus Christ, not FOR faith or FOR salvation. That is the point I am making.

                              I am not sure what your reference to Jesus' being beaten and spat upon has to do with this discussion.

                              But it is the HS in us that enables us to do good deeds and do what God wants us to do--as Paul makes plain in the 1 Corinthians verse I quoted. It is by the grace of God that he was able to do the work that he did. NOT by his own power.
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                                Exactly. God gets not only ALL the glory but ALL THE CREDIT for saving us, making us a new creation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and enabling us to DO good works as a result of that faith. NOT us.
                                So who said that It was us getting the glory???
                                We don't help for we are helpless to do anything to please God without faith in His Son.
                                well the holy Spirit is the helper helping us...so how is it that you are doing nothing??? Is the holy Spirit helping you do nothing???
                                But we do them IN faith in Jesus Christ; IN salvation in Jesus Christ, not FOR faith or FOR salvation. That is the point I am making.
                                So you have to do them correct???
                                I am not sure what your reference to Jesus' being beaten and spat upon has to do with this discussion.
                                That is what he had to go through...no one went through it for him... that is just the way it is... everyone must work out their own salvation
                                But it is the HS in us that enables us to do good deeds and do what God wants us to do--as Paul makes plain in the 1 Corinthians verse I quoted. It is by the grace of God that he was able to do the work that he did. NOT by his own power.
                                You keep building strawmen....no one is saying otherwise... everyone still have to work out their own salvation... God is going to judge Everyman according to his works... not the holy spirit's work... the holy Spirit is just the mark of ownership and the helper...we are the purchased possession...we have to show that God made a good choice in us by being obedient...

                                Comment

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