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The Resurrection--and forgiveness of sins?

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  • The Resurrection--and forgiveness of sins?

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post And by Christ's Resurrection,we have forgiveness of sins and peace with God.
    Since all will be resurrected--then does that mean all will have the forgiveness of sins?

    How many Lutherans would agree with the above statement?

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Since all will be resurrected--then does that mean all will have the forgiveness of sins?

    How many Lutherans would agree with the above statement?
    The resurrection of the true Jesus shows God accepted the sacrificial atonement of Christ.

    Christians have all of their sins forgiven at the moment of regeneration....not when they are resurrected.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
      The resurrection of the true Jesus shows God accepted the sacrificial atonement of Christ.

      Christians have all of their sins forgiven at the moment of regeneration....not when they are resurrected.
      The question being---where does the Biblical NT testify we have the forgiveness of sins by the resurrection?

      I know how it states we have forgiveness here:

      Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

        Since all will be resurrected--then does that mean all will have the forgiveness of sins?

        How many Lutherans would agree with the above statement?
        Have you ever even bothered to READ the bible???

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
          Have you ever even bothered to READ the bible???
          How are you relating this to the OP?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

            Since all will be resurrected--then does that mean all will have the forgiveness of sins?

            How many Lutherans would agree with the above statement?
            ""
            all will be resurrected--"" some to eternal life with God and some to eternal life in the lake of fire!!! So choose to believe, confess sin, repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and join the eternal family of God!,

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GISMYS View Post
              ""
              all will be resurrected--"" some to eternal life with God and some to eternal life in the lake of fire!!! So choose to believe, confess sin, repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and join the eternal family of God!,
              I'm not sure how you are relating that to the forgiveness of sins being by the Resurrection?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                The question being---where does the Biblical NT testify we have the forgiveness of sins by the resurrection?
                That's not what I said. Here it is again..."The resurrection of the true Jesus shows God accepted the sacrificial atonement of Christ."

                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
                I know how it states we have forgiveness here:

                Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                This gets deep quick as you well know. "For" in this instance has the nuance of "because". As an example do you take an aspirin "for" a headache? That is to get a headache? Of course not. You take an aspirin because you have a headache.

                Secondly, if baptism is to remove sin as you claim...then you need to be baptized each and every day to remove the sins you committed yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                  That's not what I said. Here it is again..."The resurrection of the true Jesus shows God accepted the sacrificial atonement of Christ."
                  I agree. My question was how you were relating that ----to the forgiveness of sins being by the Resurrection.

                  This gets deep quick as you well know. "For" in this instance has the nuance of "because".
                  It would be difficult to find a translation which has the term "because" in Acts2:38. There may be a recent one or two translations--among dozens--but they would be rare.

                  Most all trusted translations uses the term "for".

                  Secondly, if baptism is to remove sin as you claim...then you need to be baptized each and every day to remove the sins you committed yesterday.
                  Repentance and water baptism was for the initial remission of sins--and the "born again" event. That was also to be numbered among the church.

                  Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                  39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                  40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                  41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                  42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                  Daily repentance was given for daily sins--once one was a part of the church:

                  Matthew 6:9-13 ----King James Version (KJV)
                  9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
                  10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
                  11 Give us this day our daily bread.
                  12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
                  13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    How are you relating this to the OP?
                    Since the OP asks a TOTALLY IGNORANT question that anybody with the SLIGHTEST BIT of familiarity with the Bible would know the answer to, The relationship should be obvious.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                      This gets deep quick as you well know. "For" in this instance has the nuance of "because". As an example do you take an aspirin "for" a headache? That is to get a headache? Of course not. You take an aspirin because you have a headache.
                      Theology and Grammar Matters---https://www.christiancourier.com/art...-acts-2-38-the

                      Theologically speaking, the construction of the compound verbs — “repent and be baptized” — connected with the prepositional phrase — “for the forgiveness of sins” — demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins." And why is that?

                      Because it would equally affirm that one is required to “repent” because of the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

                      For several generations God’s people have conducted debates with our denominational neighbors as to the meaning of the word “for” (Greek, eis) in Acts 2:38. Peter commanded on that occasion:
                      “Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [unto ASV] the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
                      The English term “for” is very flexible; it may indicate a goal that is yet not reached, e.g., “Go to the ******** for [to obtain] medicine.” Or it may be used to refer to a circumstance that has transpired already, e.g., “He went to prison for [on account of] burglary.”

                      Because of this flexibility with reference to “for,” some have assumed that the Greek word eis has the same flexibility, and therefore baptism is not to obtain the forgiveness of one’s sins; rather, it is engaged because of pardon received already (presumably at the point of faith). There are several things to be said in response to this ploy. English Is Not Greek

                      Just because the English “for” has some elasticity, and thus may point to a precedent circumstance, such does not mean that the Greek preposition eis has similar properties.

                      The Greek term eis is found about 1,750 times in the New Testament. While it has a variety of meaning shades, it always is prospective (forward looking), and is neverretrospective (backward looking) in its direction.

                      It is “an indicator of direction toward a goal, not as an indicator of location without direction” (Balz, 398). The preposition is used with the accusative case, meaning it points to the object of verbal action. Thus eis generally is translated by such terms as in, into, unto, to, toward, etc. It is a goal-oriented term.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        Since all will be resurrected--then does that mean all will have the forgiveness of sins?

                        How many Lutherans would agree with the above statement?
                        You only selectively quoted me--here is the context:


                        ​Hi Beej--it always amazes me the extent some will go, to deny the clear words of Scripture, to try to get it to fit their a-priori, instead of just letting Scripture speak for itself, in, as you assert, it's "God-given immediate context." Look at how some churches try to deny what Peter said in 1 Peter, where he wrote "Now, baptism SAVES YOU..." and goes on to say why, and that it is THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And by Christ's Resurrection,we have forgiveness of sins and peace with God
                        ​​​​​​
                        Jesus conquered death and the grave when He rose from the dead in His glorified, eternal body, showing us what we who are in Him can look forward to, He became the "firstfruits" of those who die, because He rose victorious from the grave, never to die again. When we believe on Him for salvation, great and free, we indeed have the forgiveness of sins.
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                          I agree. My question was how you were relating that ----to the forgiveness of sins being by the Resurrection.



                          It would be difficult to find a translation which has the term "because" in Acts2:38. There may be a recent one or two translations--among dozens--but they would be rare.

                          Most all trusted translations uses the term "for".



                          Repentance and water baptism was for the initial remission of sins--and the "born again" event. That was also to be numbered among the church.

                          Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                          38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                          39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                          40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                          41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                          42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                          Daily repentance was given for daily sins--once one was a part of the church:

                          Matthew 6:9-13 ----King James Version (KJV)
                          9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
                          10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
                          11 Give us this day our daily bread.
                          12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
                          13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
                          Sigh. The forgiveness of sins is not TO the resurrection, but because Jesus suffered, bled, and DIED inc the cross, and rose victorious from the grave. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:

                          But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
                          Also, Peter connected Baptism with Christ's Resurrection. I think he meant all Jesus accomplished on the cross by His suffering, death, and resurrection--the forgivenss of sins and life eternal in heaven with Jesus after we die, when we trust in JESUS only for salvation, great and free.

                          And while ALL will be resurrected, not all will be saved. Resurrection isn't salvstion, because in John, Jesus said some would be resurrected to life, and some to judgment--meaning damnation.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                            Sigh. The forgiveness of sins is not TO the resurrection, but because Jesus suffered, bled, and DIED inc the cross, and rose victorious from the grave.
                            So--you would agree this statement is short of conveying the truth?

                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post And by Christ's Resurrection,we have forgiveness of sins and peace with God.
                            As Paul wrote in Romans 10:

                            Also, Peter connected Baptism with Christ's Resurrection. I think he meant all Jesus accomplished on the cross by His suffering, death, and resurrection--the forgivenss of sins and life eternal in heaven with Jesus after we die, when we trust in JESUS only for salvation, great and free.
                            Were these who trusted in Jesus?

                            Revelation 22:14--- King James Version (KJV)
                            14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                            And while ALL will be resurrected, not all will be saved. Resurrection isn't salvstion, because in John, Jesus said some would be resurrected to life, and some to judgment--meaning damnation.
                            That is true--but then--Jesus' testimony has all men being judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:

                            John 5:28-29--- King James Version (KJV)
                            28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
                            29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                            How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                              I agree. My question was how you were relating that ----to the forgiveness of sins being by the Resurrection.



                              It would be difficult to find a translation which has the term "because" in Acts2:38. There may be a recent one or two translations--among dozens--but they would be rare.

                              Most all trusted translations uses the term "for".



                              Repentance and water baptism was for the initial remission of sins--and the "born again" event. That was also to be numbered among the church.

                              Acts 2:38-42 ---King James Version (KJV)
                              38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
                              39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
                              40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
                              41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
                              42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

                              Daily repentance was given for daily sins--once one was a part of the church:

                              Matthew 6:9-13 ----King James Version (KJV)
                              9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
                              10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
                              11 Give us this day our daily bread.
                              12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
                              13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
                              No. FOR means because in this nuance. I even gave you an example.

                              Secondly, you are the one who said baptism removes sin. That verse contradicts the following..“If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

                              Well perhaps 1 John 1:7 contradicts Acts 2:38...Doesn't matter. But considering the verses really don't contradict "because" is the better nuance as to how the sentance is to be understood.

                              Thirdly, there are way to many verses that speak of salvation and baptism isn't even mentioned. If it was required i think it would have been mentioned a bit more and not hidden is some controversial verse.

                              Comment

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