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Lutheran theology?

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  • Lutheran theology?

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post You claim we choose salvation. So, I ask you to show me in Ephesians 2 verses Paul anywhere says we are saved by our choice. DOES HE SAY THAT? Hence my simp,e questi9ns about these verses.
    Paul not only testified we choose salvation--he testified we shall all stand before God and give account of our deeds:

    2 Corinthians 5:10 ---King James Version (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Which is not unlike the Savior's testimony--which states all men will be judged according to their own works--and that for life or damnation:

    John 5:28-29 ---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I brought this thread over from the theology board with a question for Lutherans:

    Do Lutherans believe all men will be judged according to their own works--and that for life or damnation?

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Paul not only testified we choose salvation--he testified we shall all stand before God and give account of our deeds:

    2 Corinthians 5:10 ---King James Version (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Which is not unlike the Savior's testimony--which states all men will be judged according to their own works--and that for life or damnation:

    John 5:28-29 ---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I brought this thread over from the theology board with a question for Lutherans:

    Do Lutherans believe all men will be judged according to their own works--and that for life or damnation?
    Where does Paul say anything about "choosing"? I don't see anything about that. Instead Paul wrote:

    Ephesians 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    Made Alive in Christ

    2 And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    See? Where does Paul write that we CHOOSE salvation? Instead, he writes that we are ALL "dead in our trespasses and sins". NOT wounded but DEAD. Tell us, dberrie--I have asked you these questions before, but you never answered me that I am aware of--WHO are we BY NATURE children of? HOW are we made alive? DO note it is passive tense--"made US alive". And WHO does so? And WHY?

    Simple questions, yet they go unanswered. Paul repeats this same theme in Colossians 2:

    13 When you were dead [k]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had [l]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through [m]Him.
    Again, WHO makes us alive spiritually? Do WE do so? OR is it Someone else? See any "choosing' going on here?

    The deeds we will be judged by are the deeds DONE IN FAITH, for Hebrews says that "without faith, it is impossible to please God." Plus, Jesus said:

    24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Two Resurrections

    25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
    We "have passed from death to life." It is already a done deal NOW, when we "hear" the voice of the Son of God, meaning, hear what He tells us and BELIEVE in Him.

    But DO note that "resurrection" here is NOT salvation at all. as you asserted elsewhere. Or rather, salvation is not resurrection, being saved from the mortal body and physical death. How can resurrection be salvation when right here, Jesus talks about the "resurrection of judgment" which means damnation? What kind of "salvation" is that? To spend eternity in an immortal body in hell and torment?



    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

    Comment


    • #3
      [QUOTE=Bonnie;n6050943] Where does Paul say anything about "choosing"?

      You are thinking we don't choose to do our own deeds?

      2 Corinthians 5:10 ---King James Version (KJV)
      10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

      So--does all men not choose to do good?

      John 5:28-29 ---King James Version (KJV)
      28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
      29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

      Why are all men judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation---and their choices are not salvational? Could you explain that for us?

      Do we choose to obey the commandments?

      1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
      3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
      4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      Is knowing Him salvational?


      Comment


      • #4
        [QUOTE=dberrie2000;n6050950]
        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
        Where does Paul say anything about "choosing"?

        You are thinking we don't choose to do our own deeds?

        2 Corinthians 5:10 ---King James Version (KJV)
        10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

        So--does all men not choose to do good?

        John 5:28-29 ---King James Version (KJV)
        28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
        29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

        Why are all men judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation---and their choices are not salvational? Could you explain that for us?

        Do we choose to obey the commandments?

        1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
        3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
        4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

        Is knowing Him salvational?

        Where did Paul say we can CHOOSE to follow Jesus Christ when we are unregenerated?

        Now ,answer my questions dberrie, instead of deflecting:

        1. WHO or what are all of us by nature, the children of?
        2. HOW are we made alive in Christ Jesus?
        3. WHO makes us alive in Christ Jesus?
        4. WHY are we made alive in Christ Jesus?

        DO note that the verbs are PASSIVE TENSE.

        And knowing Jesus is believing in Him for full salvation, great and free.

        8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
        Now, answer my questions about these Ephesians 2 verses, if you please, instead of stalling.
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          Where did Paul say we can CHOOSE to follow Jesus Christ when we are unregenerated?
          Right where Jesus testified:

          John 10:27-28 ---King James Version (KJV)
          27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
          28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

          IOW:

          1) His sheep hear His voice
          2) They follow Him
          3) He gives them eternal life

          So--where do we find God giving eternal life to anyone other than those who follow Him?

          And--as Paul testified:

          2 Corinthians 5:10 ---King James Version (KJV)
          10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

          So--does all men not choose to do good?

          John 5:28-29 ---King James Version (KJV)
          28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

          Why are all men judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation---and their choices are not salvational? Could you explain that for us?

          Comment


          • #6
            Take a look at what you quoted--Jesus said "I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE.." Jesus gives us eternal life. We don't "choose" it, for the UNregenerated cannot do so on their own.

            Nice deflection, dberrie. But none of these things you posted has anything to do with Ephesians 2, nor do they answer my questions. Kindly stop stalling and answer them if you please. If you cannot, let me know, and I will do so for you.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              Take a look at what you quoted--Jesus said "I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE.." Jesus gives us eternal life. We don't "choose" it,
              Bonnie--we don't choose eternal life in giving it--we choose eternal life in doing those things to receive it. We do so by following Jesus Christ:

              1 John 2:17--- King James Version (KJV)
              17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

              How do Lutherans fit that into their theology?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                Bonnie--we don't choose eternal life in giving it--we choose eternal life in doing those things to receive it. We do so by following Jesus Christ:
                Here you go again...happenstance theology.... If we're lucky enough to be a mormon and get baptized by an authorized mormon...we can be saved.

                Sorry, not buying that.

                Do the lurkers know the mormons teach Jesus was a byproduct of sexual relation in heaven?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                  Here you go again...happenstance theology.... If we're lucky enough to be a mormon and get baptized by an authorized mormon...we can be saved.

                  Sorry, not buying that.

                  Do the lurkers know the mormons teach Jesus was a byproduct of sexual relation in heaven?
                  Could you explain how you are relating any of that to my retort?

                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Bonnie--we don't choose eternal life in giving it--we choose eternal life in doing those things to receive it. We do so by following Jesus Christ:
                  Care to address that point?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                    Could you explain how you are relating any of that to my retort?



                    Care to address that point?
                    You preach happenstance salvation theology.

                    Your theology is based upon a false theology.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                      You preach happenstance salvation theology.

                      Your theology is based upon a false theology.
                      Then you believe this is a a happenstance and false theology?

                      1 John 2:17--- King James Version (KJV)
                      17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

                      How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                        Then you believe this is a a happenstance and false theology?

                        1 John 2:17--- King James Version (KJV)
                        17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

                        How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
                        You can't knowingly do the will of God unless you're saved...and it is the saved that abideth for ever.

                        As I have said:
                        You preach happenstance salvation theology.

                        Your theology is based upon a false theology.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                          You can't knowingly do the will of God unless you're saved...
                          Then these were saved prior to the Blood of the Lamb?

                          1 John 1:7 ---King James Version (KJV)
                          7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                            Then these were saved prior to the Blood of the Lamb?

                            1 John 1:7 ---King James Version (KJV)
                            7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

                            You can't walk in the light unless you're saved.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then these were saved prior to the Blood of the Lamb?

                              1 John 1:7 ---King James Version (KJV)
                              7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
                              Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                              You can't walk in the light unless you're saved.
                              That's only an admission you believe those of 1John1:7 were saved prior to the Blood of the Lamb. I don't.

                              Comment

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