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A question for ethnic Jews on here...

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  • A question for ethnic Jews on here...

    I asked this question on the Judaism board, but it is such a little used board that I might not get much of an answer from anyone there.

    Anyway, there is a Mormon who thinks that a Gentile can mean even an ethnic Jew from a non-Jewish country, like Paul, or living outside of Israel. I have never, ever heard of anyone else making that claim. I asked him if the ethnic Jews living in the US would be Gentiles and he wrote:

    According to the definition you provided.. Yes, they would be. We tend not to call them gentiles, we tend not to call ourselves gentiles.
    And

    It all depends on how you define 'gentile' and from YOUR dictionary link.. the very first definition : a person of a non-Jewish nation. Which is consistent with what I said.. Paul was an apostle to the 'gentiles'.. Persons in non-Jewish NATIONS.. The person may or may not be a Jew by heritage or belief... Just living in a non-Jewish Nation. Paul himself was a 'gentile' by that definition.. He was a person living in a non-Jewish nation.. Tarsus was not Jewish.. He was a roman Citizen as well.. Even if he was a practicing an believing Jew. Hence that is why in Acts we see he usually is teaching to Jews in the local synagogue of non-Jewish nations.
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...gentiles/page3 (this second quote comes from someplace in this link, but I forgot exactly where)

    In the blue quote box. Follow the arrow links to see the original. The "definition" I provided that he is referring to is this one from on-line Merriem-Webster:

    Definition of gentile


    (Entry 1 of 2)

    1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew
    . Anyway, he showed from the same dictionary that "of" can also mean "in" as in "the fish of the ocean." But I do not think that the M-W definition means a Jewish person living IN a non-Jewish nation but from or born in.

    I showed numerous Bible verses where distinctions were made between Jew and Gentile, circumcised and circumcised. And where Paul himself, in Acts 21 I think it is, calls himself a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia. He NEVER referred to himself as a Gentile. And no place in the Bible, especially the NT, do I ever see a Jew living outside Israel being called a "Gentile."

    I think Jews have, for thousands of years, referred to non-Jews as Gentiles. Seems to me, they have first rights to the term and what it means. An you can read what I wrote in this thread in posts nos. 2,3, and 26, where I quoted plenty of Bible verses to back me up, that clearly call Jews living outside of Judea and Galilee "Jews".

    The beginning is here:

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...ws-or-gentiles

    (please ignore the posts by Danno; he is going off on a tangent)

    So those of you who are ethnic Jews living outside of Israel...would you call yourselves "Gentiles"? Would that be correct?

    Last edited by Bonnie; 10-13-18, 05:47 PM.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

  • #2
    What Most Important is the soul, not ethnicity of a carnal body.

    Scripture understands this too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by e v e View Post
      What Most Important is the soul, not ethnicity of a carnal body.

      Scripture understands this too.
      You may be right, Eve. Yet at the same time, God is not unconcerned with whether one is part of the Children of Israel or not. It is God who set aside the Jews as a nation of priests, a covenantal people.
      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

        You may be right, Eve. Yet at the same time, God is not unconcerned with whether one is part of the Children of Israel or not. It is God who set aside the Jews as a nation of priests, a covenantal people.
        The children are based upon soul not ethnic. Jew and Hebrew are not synonyms, as soul or in flesh. Ref., the Jewish encyclopedia that the Jews are not the judahites of scripture.

        people in scripture are His. The term nations is badly mistranslated and refers to those Not His.

        the covental people are His adamite souls. Not races or nations.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          You may be right, Eve. Yet at the same time, God is not unconcerned with whether one is part of the Children of Israel or not. It is God who set aside the Jews as a nation of priests, a covenantal people.
          Just consider that what I said. I could give more detailed information to show about the nations... I’d rather not since I’m very tired.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by e v e View Post

            The children are based upon soul not ethnic. Jew and Hebrew are not synonyms, as soul or in flesh. Ref., the Jewish encyclopedia that the Jews are not the judahites of scripture.

            people in scripture are His. The term nations is badly mistranslated and refers to those Not His.

            the covental people are His adamite souls. Not races or nations.
            Actually Hebrews, Isrealites, and Jews are used pretty interchangably. Allow me to qualify that.

            IN GENERAL:

            Up until the time of the Exodus, Abraham and his descendants through Isaac were called Hebrews.

            Beginning with the Exodus, they were called B'nei Yisrael, which translates variously as the Children of Israel, People of Israel, or Israelites. This term is still used by Jews today among ourselves. This continued through the United Kingdoms of David and Solomon.

            Then we went through a short period where B'nei Yisrael split into two Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom, which was 10 tribes plus Levi, was called Israel. The Southern Kingdom, which was 2 tribes plus Levi, was called Judah. The Northern Kingdom was the first to fall. Some of its people were carried away into captivity and were lost to us. Some stayed and intermarried and became the Samaritans. Some fled south as refugees to Judah, So that Judah became Benjamin, Judah, Levi, plus a smidgeon of the other 10 tribes. Thus when Judah fell, ALL the tribes went into captivity in Babylon.

            In Babylon, everyone was called a Yehudi, or Jew, simply because that meant they came from the Kingdom of Judah. They were called this even if they were of Levi or Benjamin or a refugee from one of the ten tribes of the North. In this manner, "Jew" cam to denote all Israelites (or Hebrews). For a long time, it was a term that others used for us -- we continued to call ourselves B'nei Yisael. But eventually we adopted the term Jew for ourselves, and we now wear it proudly.

            So you see that with qualifications, Hebrew=Israelite=Jew. All the remaining descendants of Jacob today plus converts to Judaism (aka adoptees into Israel) call ourselves Jews.

            Indeed I know of a man whose last name is Ephramovitch (son of Ephraim). His ancestors had fled to the Russian area and joined up with Gypsies, but had always been true to sticking with Torah, eating only kosher meat and keeping the Shabbat. He now attends my synagogue. And you know what he calls himself? A JEW.


            Now moving on to the next issue...

            God made his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. Not with the goyim (which does indeed translate as nations). In other words there is Israel and there are the nations. A clear dividing line between who is of the covenant and who is not.

            It doesn't mean that the nations are unloved or insignificant. After all, God sent Jonah to bring Ninivah to repentance. He kept Israel out of Canaan to give the city states there time to repent. He would not have done those things if Gentiles didn't matter to him. One has only to read about the lives of the Gentiles before Abraham to know how much God cares for the nations.

            But do the 613 laws of the covenant apply to the nations? No. Some of the laws, don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery etc. are universal. But Gentiles can eat pork, don't need to keep the Shabbat, etc. For example, although Shabbat existed since Adam, Adam was never ordered to observe it. NO ONE was ordered to observe it until the Israelites were.
            Last edited by Open Heart; 01-05-19, 01:05 PM.
            Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

            "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

              Actually Hebrews, Isrealites, and Jews are used pretty interchangably. Allow me to qualify that.

              IN GENERAL:

              Up until the time of the Exodus, Abraham and his descendants through Isaac were called Hebrews.

              Beginning with the Exodus, they were called B'nei Yisrael, which translates variously as the Children of Israel, People of Israel, or Israelites. This term is still used by Jews today among ourselves. This continued through the United Kingdoms of David and Solomon.

              Then we went through a short period where B'nei Yisrael split into two Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom, which was 10 tribes plus Levi, was called Israel. The Southern Kingdom, which was 2 tribes plus Levi, was called Judah. The Northern Kingdom was the first to fall. Some of its people were carried away into captivity and were lost to us. Some stayed and intermarried and became the Samaritans. Some fled south as refugees to Judah, So that Judah became Benjamin, Judah, Levi, plus a smidgeon of the other 10 tribes. Thus when Judah fell, ALL the tribes went into captivity in Babylon.

              In Babylon, everyone was called a Yehudi, or Jew, simply because that meant they came from the Kingdom of Judah. They were called this even if they were of Levi or Benjamin or a refugee from one of the ten tribes of the North. In this manner, "Jew" cam to denote all Israelites (or Hebrews). For a long time, it was a term that others used for us -- we continued to call ourselves B'nei Yisael. But eventually we adopted the term Jew for ourselves, and we now wear it proudly.

              So you see that with qualifications, Hebrew=Israelite=Jew. All the remaining descendants of Jacob today plus converts to Judaism (aka adoptees into Israel) call ourselves Jews.

              Indeed I know of a man whose last name is Ephramovitch (son of Ephraim). His ancestors had fled to the Russian area and joined up with Gypsies, but had always been true to sticking with Torah, eating only kosher meat and keeping the Shabbat. He now attends my synagogue. And you know what he calls himself? A JEW.
              “Norms of use of terms” is satanic trickery.

              i take that as:

              it all got polluted after Abraham...

              on purpose to confuse His souls with the “nations. “

              i do not take the terms as synonymous.

              Comment


              • #8
                As far as I know, I was Jewish at birth, set apart by Yahweh same as others set apart from birth (as written in the NT).
                I live in the USA all my life (with a few visits to Mexico and to Canada).
                I don't know why anyone would even consider what a non-Christian, non-Jewish person said concerning the Jews, or concerning Christians.

                For those who are grafted in to Christ, I think "New Creation" is better way to think, as written in Scripture, for both Jews and gentiles.

                Those who are not in Christ are unable to grasp or to understand anything spiritual truthfully.

                Thus when they say (as in OP quoted below) "a Gentile can mean", is simply because " 'a Gentile' can mean " to those who think that way - it can mean what they say and think, without changing what other people say and think.

                What people say and think usually does not ever line up with what Yahweh (G-d) Says, does it , in the world ? In truth, just the opposite, usually opposed to Scripture.

                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                I asked this question on the Judaism board, but it is such a little used board that I might not get much of an answer from anyone there.

                Anyway, there is a Mormon who thinks that a Gentile can mean even an ethnic Jew from a non-Jewish country, like Paul, or living outside of Israel. I have never, ever heard of anyone else making that claim. I asked him if the ethnic Jews living in the US would be Gentiles and he wrote:
                ... ... ... ... ... ...

                So those of you who are ethnic Jews living outside of Israel...would you call yourselves "Gentiles"? Would that be correct?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jethro77 View Post
                  As far as I know, I was Jewish at birth,
                  So your mother is a Jew? Y/N ?

                  Then what a tragedy it is that you are so hostile to the religion of the Children of Israel.
                  Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                  "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Most of my life , all my life really, "Whoever blesses the Jews will be blessed" is truth, unchangeable, forever, according to Yahweh Elohim.

                    Yahweh hates religion, but loves people.

                    If someone is trapped in religion, as in "Your solemn assemblies I (Yahweh) abhor" , there's only one way to be set free.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jethro77 View Post
                      Most of my life , all my life really, "Whoever blesses the Jews will be blessed" is truth, unchangeable, forever, according to Yahweh Elohim.

                      Yahweh hates religion, but loves people.

                      If someone is trapped in religion, as in "Your solemn assemblies I (Yahweh) abhor" , there's only one way to be set free.
                      God does not hate religion. God himself set up a religion with the Israelites after the exodus. It's laws, sacrifices and priesthood, and holy days, are all described in the Torah.
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Religion (and religious posters) is known for "having the form of religion, but denying the power thereof" (no power to save, or live right, or help others) ..


                        "God Hates Religion

                        Yes, God hates religion…

                        I will give you Biblical support for that statement in a moment.

                        Someone may be thinking “I thought God invented religion!” Sorry, but God invented Man and Man invented religion."

                        God Hates Religion | Defining the Narrative
                        If God hates religion, then is it a sin to be part of one? Religion is the main starter for a war. If you take a look at history, conflict over religion has killed thousands upon thousands of people.
                        https// definingthenarrative . com/god-hates-religion/


                        God Hates Religion - Christ in You Ministries
                        God Hates Religion. A survey of the Scriptures reveals that there is one category that God hates above all others. God hates religion! Many will be confused, if not offended by such a statement, for they have identified God with religion. Religion, therefore, needs to be defined and differentiated from the Christian gospel.
                        www . christinyou.net/pages/godhatesrel.html


                        God Hates Religion | Sermon Series - Truth of God
                        Why God Hates Religion #1 - Worship God in "Spirit and in Truth" Why God Hates Religion #2 - See "the Way" with the "Eyes of Your Mind" Why God Hates Religion #3 - Who Started Religion? Why God Hates Religion #4 - Which Religion Will God Retain in the Millennium? Why God Hates Religion #5 - Can "Religion" Save?
                        wwww . cbcg.org/series/religion/god-hates-religion.html

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jethro77 View Post
                          Religion (and religious posters) is known for "having the form of religion, but denying the power thereof" (no power to save, or live right, or help others)
                          1. Christianity is a religion.

                          2. God created the religion that was given to the Israelites -- God can't hate something that he himself creates.

                          3. All the major religions teach the Golden Rule, hence they do help to live right ad help other.

                          As to your quotes, basically they do not exclude religion. Let me give you an analogy of the logic. If I say that fruit is high in antioxidants, that would be true, but it doesn't exclude that fruits have seeds.
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yahweh hates the religion you trust and practice, because it separates His Mercy and Promises from you, and you from Him.

                            Thus, experientially, Yahweh hates religion as you know it, but He Loves people,

                            and did all that is needed, made every provision generously in and through Yeshua Messiah, to set willing people free from that religion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jethro77 View Post
                              Yahweh hates the religion you trust and practice, because it separates His Mercy and Promises from you, and you from Him.

                              Thus, experientially, Yahweh hates religion as you know it, but He Loves people,

                              and did all that is needed, made every provision generously in and through Yeshua Messiah, to set willing people free from that religion.
                              I'm STILL waiting for you to deal with the fact that God himself created the very religion that the Israelites practiced in the Torah. How could God create something he hates? I anxiously await your response.
                              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                              Comment

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