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Christianity, Judaism and Dispensationalism in "Messianic Judaism"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by HENOG View Post
    Grace is not a new concept, Mercy is not a new concept, Messiah is not a new concept,
    Originally posted by joline View Post
    By faith.... these all died in faith, not having received the promises but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
    IMO, NT concepts are not new

    I think these "Laws" have not passed away.

    a dispensational view would be that before those laws were given, people were guided by their conscience....
    another dispensational view would be that gentiles were once apart from God,, but now in Messiah can be brought near to God and the promises to Israel, but don't become or overtake Israel
    you might disagree..(?)

    you think the "administration" is something else than the Dispensational view
    and you think gentile believers in Jesus are Israel.
    correct?

    -----

    other than the women (by marriage), are there any Biblical examples of gentile men allowed to be circumcised and take on the full Mosaic Law?

    proselytes, the forced conversion of the Edomites and gentiles becoming Jews seem to have been contentious among the different Jewish factions
    I know some who say they did not "become Jews" - they became Judaistic

    (I find the Nathan/gentile issue interesting mostly because of the other gentile connections to David - if wasn't the case, no big deal)
    Last edited by American Gothic; 03-14-19, 03:45 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
      a dispensational view would be that before those laws were given, people were guided by their conscience....
      another dispensational view would be that gentiles were once apart from God,, but now in Messiah can be brought near to God and the promises to Israel, but don't become or overtake Israel
      you might disagree..(?)
      Yes I might. That "gentiles could be brought near to God and the promises to Israel" is nothing special, that's always been the case. That would be a rather weak messianic accomplishment, if at all.

      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
      you think the "administration" is something else than the Dispensational view
      and you think gentile believers in Jesus are Israel.
      correct?
      That last part: "you think gentile believers in Jesus are Israel" it's a little too casual, too sloppy for my taste. Rather I'd say: Jesus Christ is the be-all and end-all of Israel, in Him Israel receives it's purpose, in Him Israel becomes Israel and ALL the promises made to our fathers are fulfilled in Him. Including:

      No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

      I will cause your descendants to become as numerous as the stars of the sky, and I will give them all these lands. And through your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

      I will surely bless you, and I will multiply your descendants like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the gates of their enemies.


      And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by HENOG View Post
        That "gentiles could be brought near to God and the promises to Israel" is nothing special" - that's always been the case.
        How so?
        Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
        that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
        But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Eph. 2

        I do think it was always part of the Abrahamic promise, if that is what you are getting at....

        Jesus Christ is the be-all and end-all....
        ALL the promises made....are fulfilled in Him.
        mmmmm
        Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
        20 having been built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,





        Do you see any promises as still unfulfilled?

        Are you Gentile? Are you Jewish? If so, in what way?
        What connection if any do you see for yourself to "Judaism"? or "Christianity"? or "MJ"? or whatever..?
        Last edited by American Gothic; 03-14-19, 05:28 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          Yes, I have changed my mind.
          Yeah...... EDIT PER MOD
          She's gone from Catholic to Jew to Jewish Catholic to Jew again and now seems to be denying the anointed son of the Most High God.
          Last edited by 4Him; 03-15-19, 11:53 AM.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
            How so?
            Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
            that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
            But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Eph. 2

            I do think it was always part of the Abrahamic promise, if that is what you are getting at....
            And the letter to the Ephesians continues with:

            For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

            So from this, for me, it's clear to see: They were once far off, they were brought near and more so even, division has been taken away, one new man in one body has come to life, according to the apostle Paul at least.

            When I said before, that the gentiles could come near even before the letter to the Ephesians was written, I was referring to the so-called Court of the Gentiles. In the Talmud this might be called the common court.

            Josephus says there was in the court of the temple a wall or balustrade, breast high, having pillars at regular distances, with inscriptions on them in Greek and Latin, importing that strangers were forbidden to approach nearer to the altar.

            It might have been this balustrade and these inscriptions that the apostle Paul had in mind when he was writing the letter to the Ephesians.


            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
            Do you see any promises as still unfulfilled?

            I have hope to see the coming of the Lord in Spirit and Power also in my lifetime, here where I am. So that an awakening can take place and our adverseries here will be put to shame but also moved to repentance. Not only for our sake but for the sake of His name. Even now the Spirit and the Bride says: Come Lord Jesus Come. I have read that He has done this in many generations before and when He does, it is miraculous! Now that you get me talking about this, I am reminded: I must sanctify myself, I must be ready, be holy. May the Lord have mercy and grace at his appearing.

            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
            What connection if any do you see for yourself to "Judaism"? or "Christianity"? or "MJ"? or whatever..?
            Well the connection I have to Judaism is of course the Torah and the Prophets, the Old Testament if you will. I like reading their ideas also. The Zohar is very interesting a copy of Christian ideas maybe. But everything they have to say is interesting. But I am interested in Religion in general actually, Islam is also very interesting. One might say it's a form of Christianity even, but that's a different topic. I am a Christian and I was born into the fold. I thank God for this, I am not sure when my people converted to Christianity, it might go many decades and even centuries back.
            I'm interested in Messianic Judaism because I'm weary of dispensationalism and to me it seems like Messianic Judaism is the non plus ultra of dispensationalism.

            Thanks for asking, how about you?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by HENOG View Post

              Pleased to meet you. But like I say, you'll meet many more here on CARM. Prophecy is also continually being fulfilled, in every generation over and over again, it never becomes a mere historical point of reference, because the Word of God is alive. But this is a different topic.
              The internet tends to attract those who are a part of marginal groups, since in real life people don't listen to them, but on the net they have captive audiences. Your beliefs simply aren't mainstream. However, I will do my best to address them.




              Well, I must humbly admit that I don't believe any of what you wrote above...However, you'll find here on CARM people who believe that dispensationalists actually are NOT Christians but that's a little bit too heavy for me. The phrase "second coming" is not even to be found in the Bible btw. But that's a different topic again.
              So you believe that all the Jews live in Israel, that we've had 2000 years without international warfare, and that Jesus ruled from Jerusalem? Absurd. Explain to me how in the world you can believe this.

              As far as dispensationalism goes, it seems to be repeatedly brought up in our discussion. It is one thing for it to be brought up a sideline to an explanation on MJ. But for it to become a topic of its own, which it pretty much has become, is making me feel guilty. This forum is to discuss issues related to MJ. Dispensationalism is not. MJs believe that the Israel God established at Sinai is still present and active and part of God's plan for salvation even now, and that her covenant is still in effect. That's the opposite of dispensationalism. So let's you and me both drop the dispensationalist topic, okay?

              Please allow me to point out something I don't understand. They seem to be contradictory:

              You said:

              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
              The way you become a Messianic, either Jew or Gentile, is by simply attending a MJ congregation. NORMALLY Gentiles who attend MJ congregations remain Gentiles.

              But you also said:

              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
              Judaism defines Jews tribally, which means it includes converts.
              My experience with MJ has been similar. Stuart Dauermann and Mark Kinzer, both leaders in MJ, accept converts as fully Jewish, children of Israel.

              I trust you can see the contradiction here. Or is your opinion just different from Dauerman's and Kinzer's opinion?

              If Messianic Judaism is proper Christianity, then Dauermann and Kinzer have the correct view because this is also the view of Christianity-proper, those who become Christians are "fully jewish (even though this term has a million different meanings today), children of Israel"
              This is not a contradiction. I tried my best to explain it to you, but just didn't do a good enough job.
              1. The "true Jews" that believers are is a FIGURATIVE expression. Acts 15 makes it clear that Gentile believers are NOT to be circumcised and brought under the law (made Jews).

              2. There is a difference between what "messianic" means and what "Jew" means. A Messianic may be either a Gentile or a Jew. Gentiles who join Messianic congregations are known as Messianic Gentiles (or must plain Messianics). They are not Messianic Jews. They do not change ethnicity. The only Jews in such congregations are those who were Jewish when they arrived, or went through what UMJC considers a halakhic conversion NOT to Messianic Judaism but to Judaism.

              3. UMJC recommends that the overwhelming majority of Gentiles remain Gentiles. However, they recognize that there are a very few exceptions to the rule: those Gentiles married to Jews and want to have a united home, and rare Gentiles with such a strong affinity for Israel that it is as if they have a Jewish soul. UMJC believes that it would be just as wrong not to make allowances for these exceptions as it would be wrong to force the overwhelming number of Gentiles to become Jews. In other words they have the same rationale for conversion as other Jews. And they have the same method as well: a long period of study followed by an appearance before a beit din and immersion in a mikvah. They believe this changes the ethnicity of the Gentile to that of Jew. Again, this is only recommended for the exceptional cases. The majority of Gentiles in their congregations remain Gentiles.



              But even as late as AD 520 the hostilities between adherents of Judaism and Christianity did not stop.

              In AD 516, a tribal unrest broke out in Yemen and several tribal elites fought for power. One of those elites was Joseph Dhu Nuwas or "Yousef Asa'ar", a Jewish warlord mentioned in ancient south Arabian inscriptions. Syriac and Byzantine sources claim that he fought his war because Christians in Yemen refused to renounce Christianity. In 2009, a documentary that aired on the BBC defended the claim that the villagers had been offered the choice between conversion to Judaism or death and that 20,000 Christians were then massacred stating that "The production team spoke to many historians over 18 months, among them Nigel Groom, who was our consultant, and Professor Abdul Rahman Al-Ansary, a former professor of archaeology at the King Saud University in Riyadh." Inscriptions documented by Yousef himself show the great pride that he expressed after killing more than 22,000 Christians in Zafar and Najran. Historian Glen Bowersock described this as a "savage pogrom that the Jewish king of the Arabs launched against the Christians in the city of Najran. The king himself reported in excruciating detail to his Arab and Persian allies about the massacres that he had inflicted on all Christians who refused to convert to Judaism."
              I don't believe that this Arab King was a Jew. This accusation sounds exactly like the sort of anti-Semitic accusation that Christians of that era would make. Your professor is also a Muslim anti-Semite.

              Jews of that era already had the long established tradition of not proselytizing, and certainly not forcing Judaism on anyone. It is quite well established among historians that the only forced conversion that Jews ever did was that of the Edomites and Idumeans after the Maccabean wars when their territories came under Jewish rule. THAT was so problematic that Jews never did it again. We learned our lesson.


              If you mean by Jews, the ones who were not part of the Messianic community that the apostle Peter was part of then you are of course correct, Peter did not have any authority in that community i.e. in that religion i.e. Judaism. Judaism kept on circumcising and requires it of their converts too (only the men of course). Here are the words of the apostle Peter again:

              Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

              For me "not being able" speaks more of impossibility than difficulty. But we don't have to get into that. I think the point was that salvation was NOT about being circumcised. If you want to be circumcised, no problem, but that's not where it's at. Even some converts to Christianity had themselves circumcised and if some-one today would like to do this, why not. The point is something else.
              I of course mean Jews that were a part of the messianic community -- that's why I say Jewish BELIEVERS, It's not a matter of not be able to control it. The apostles didn't criticize it and participated in it. Consider Acts 21, when Paul went to Jerusalem to deliver the money from his charity drive and to talk with James. He is told in verse 21 that the thousands of Jewish believers are "all zealous for Torah." There is a serious problem with a false rumor going around that Paul is preaching to Jews to give up Moses. Now Paul WAS preaching this, but not to Jews. Who was he preaching this to? Gentiles!!!! So James comes up with a plan to restore Paul's good name. Paul (who was formerly a Nazarite himself) was to go with some Nazarite believers to end their vows by making a sacrifice in the Temple. Now, Paul is not the sort to keep quiet when he thought things were wrong, was he? Did he object to this plan? Nope. Not one single bit. Why not? Because he too wanted to dispel the false rumors that he was preaching that Jewish believers should abandon Moses.


              It sounds like you and I have different ideas about what salvation and what heaven is. For me salvation is now and heaven is now, it's in obeying the Law, Eternal life is not about quantity but about quality, eternal life is entering the land promised to our fathers.
              Are you saying you don't believe in an afterlife?

              No land was promised to your forefathers. Sorry.
              Last edited by Open Heart; 03-15-19, 04:43 PM.
              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                It certainly IF...'
                Somewhere in the Talmud it might say that David's main advisor was not an Israelite. (I'm not a Talmudic scholar, so that con be checked out if one is interested and able.)
                In the Dead Sea Scrolls/Book of Nathan, it might call Nathan "David's Prophet" and say he was from Gibeon. (I am only going by some scrolls scholar claims.)
                IF, that is in fact the case then Nathan might have been a Gibeonite, and a Gentile.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibeon_(ancient_city)
                He maybe could have been a convert, if that was actually allowed then, but that would not necessarily have been necessary for him to live in Israel, or be a prophet...(?)
                I'm sure you know that we Jews don't base our opinions on books other than the Tanakh and Talmud, and you would have to back up your claim.

                And I'm also sure you know by now that if he were a convert, he would no longer be a Gentile.
                Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by HENOG View Post
                  Thanks for asking, how about you?
                  I only ask for frame of reference of generally who we are talking to -
                  as you've probably noticed, the regulars here all disagree with each other in certain matters and while we discuss passionately and some may get a little overbearing (me), step on each others toes a bit, and have occasional tiffs, for the most part sharing and theological combat here is good natured, so please put up with us.

                  I'm not Jewish, but think the scriptures are and should be understood with that in mind.
                  I have an interest in Messianism from a Jewish perspective, and also a Gentile one as I don't think Gentiles have to become Jewish, and so I hang out in the MJ forum.
                  IMO in Messiah we are co-heirs, but there are physical promises that belong to Israel itself that must come to pass in full, and God is not finished with Israel as a people or nation. (a bit Dispy)
                  And I see faith and grace as always being the essentials, but think faith existed in different contexts at different times. (ex. being Abel's faith compared to what We know about Jesus now.)

                  the gentiles could come near even before
                  I agree there have always been gentiles that were Believers and people of God.

                  were once far off, they were brought near and more so even,
                  IMO, now in Messiah, things are different than they were before.
                  I still view a distinction between Israel the nation and the Church though. (a bit Dispy)

                  I am reminded: I must sanctify myself, I must be ready, be holy. May the Lord have mercy and grace at his appearing.
                  IMO, in Jesus we are already justified and sanctified (though maybe also still being sanctified too) - we don't make ourselves ready, God does the ready making.
                  (that seems a bit Calvinistic)
                  IMo as a genti8le I have never transgressed the Law of Moses - as a gentle, I have never been under Mosaic Law.
                  (that's not to say I have never sinned)
                  If we have already passed from death to life, what punishment are we going to now be given? not death...we are already completely forgiven.
                  (that is not a license to sin, but a position we have in Messiah)

                  forbidden to approach nearer
                  An issue I take with Judaism and MJ that really leans towards Judaism is that one of accessibility under the Mosaic covenant and Law.

                  I am a Christian and I was born into the fold.
                  How is one born a Christian...?
                  Last edited by American Gothic; 03-15-19, 05:05 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                    I'm sure you know that we Jews don't base our opinions
                    Jews think...etc
                    Why would you insist all your People think alike?

                    (Encino/Sherman Oaks accent) - "WHAT-EV-ER"
                    Last edited by American Gothic; 03-15-19, 05:12 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                      Why would you insist all your People think alike?
                      (Encino/Sherman Oaks accent) - "WHAT-EV-ER"
                      We certainly DON"T all think alike. But some views are so common that they are simply overwhelming. And there are commonly accepted norms of Judaism, so that even if a Jew were an atheist, he would still say, for example, that Judaism looks to Torah (meaning the larger Torah: Tanakh and Talmud).
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                        there are commonly accepted norms of Ju
                        There are Jews that are Dispensational/4.5 point Calvinistic go to synagogue on Sat and Evangelical church on Sun have kids who are Israeli citizens and veterans of the IDF...

                        even Gentile believers have a sinless Jewish Rabbi living inside of them...you can't get much more kosher than that.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                          There are Jews that are Dispensational/4.5 point Calvinistic go to synagogue on Sat and Evangelical church on Sun have kids who are Israeli citizens and veterans of the IDF...

                          even Gentile believers have a sinless Jewish Rabbi living inside of them...you can't get much more kosher than that.
                          I seriously don't understand you. Are you joking around?
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                            How is one born a Christian...?
                            I think "born into the fold" is a better expression. It has to do with one's understanding of the covenant God made with our fathers.
                            When did you enter the fold i.e. when did you become a Christian?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                              I seriously don't understand you.
                              "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."
                              "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."
                              ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."
                              "so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God."
                              "to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"
                              "The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
                              "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

                              If we have a sinless Jewish rabbi (who is God) inside us, we must already be acceptable to God.

                              There are Jews who hold "Christian", even Dispensational and Calvinistic, views - does that make them not Jews?
                              If they attend a synagogue of some sort, does that make them MJ?



                              Originally posted by HENOG View Post
                              "born into the fold"
                              mmmmmm
                              IMO, believers are not born, they are made. (re-born)
                              and I consider even faith to be a gracious gift from God.

                              when did you become a Christian
                              So I guess at whatever point God gave that gift of faith, imputed to me the righteousness of the Messiah, and in His Son from then on considered me righteous in His sight.
                              Last edited by American Gothic; 03-16-19, 02:47 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by HENOG View Post
                                Getting back to our friends the dispensationalists, they are a source of confusion for both adherents of Christianity and Judaism, from a Christian perspective they seem to want to lead Christians into Judaism.
                                This sounds odd to me....

                                Dispensationalism asserts that Jews need the Gospel. (It also makes a distinction between Israel and the Church.)
                                Covenantal theology seems to assert that Jews don't need the Gospel, they can be saved in their own covenant and thru Judaism.

                                MJ in general seems to be a movement of (often gentle) persons turning to (or if Jewish continuing in) Judaistic practices -
                                with the more "Hebrew roots" wing insisting the Mosaic Law is mandatory for everyone.


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