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Evangelizing Jews

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  • #31
    Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

    Spiritually, I agree.
    I think there are physical promises specifically to Israel, that will be kept specifically with them.
    Such as? From which covenant are they based on?


    Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
    and it then became inoperative, IMO
    Only for those in Christ IMO. Israel has suffered its wrath for two thousand years.


    Odd since He did miracles that THEY said would show someone was the Messiah as well.
    But he said he did works no other man has done. So, the Messianic expectation is unique in works. I wonder about the collective nature of sin in the law. Joshua spoke of it.

    Collective nature of sin...

    Jos 22:17 Is the iniquity of Peor too little for us, from which we are not cleansed until this day, although there was a plague in the congregation of the LORD,

    Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.

    And the idea that it takes certain persons for the law to be done. It takes a village so to speak. Without the sons of Aaron, the work of the high priest cannot be done, same with Levites, men, women....each have commands to keep peculiar to them. If the same principle is true of Christ then all the law could not be done until Jesus came to do the command.

    Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

    Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them

    The collective nature of righteousness also.....

    I think Jesus had works of law which only he alone could do.....
    and no one else.

    De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

    Just a thought

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

      There's a Ben Shapiro interview with John MacArthur - he's a bit Calvinist, but it's interesting to hear them discuss and contrast their views.
      What is it about?
      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by American Gothic View Post
        Todays unbelieving Jews get the same way when someone tries to talk to them about Jesus, they just don't want to listen...they've rejected it already and don't want to hear it again.
        Their ears are stuffed up...as well as their eyes covered.
        But wait a second. Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they consider believing a man is God to be a form of idolatry. Would YOU listen with interest to an idolater? If a Hindu wanted to talk to you about Krishna at an airport and you had time to kill, would you listen and inquire? I don't think so. I think you have YOUR mind already made up. So how can you fault the Jew for being no different than you?
        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by joline View Post
          I think Jesus had works of law which only he alone could do.....
          and no one else.
          Can you give an example?
          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
            Can you give an example?

            And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

            Last edited by joline; 04-19-19, 09:47 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by joline View Post
              Collective nature of sin...
              I'm not sure this is what you mean but -
              I would just point out that the Mosaic Law stirs up sin - in individuals, and in the Nation as a whole.

              God is fully aware of this as it was par of what the Law was given to do, to make sure no one doesn't get the point that they deserve nothing from God, at all.
              But where sin abounds, then His grace can abound all the more. (Rom. 5)

              Such as? From which covenant are they based on?
              IMO, the Land covenant is made specifically with the ethnic nation that came from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and it belongs to them eternally. (Deut. 29)
              I should credit where I get stuff from more, and this comes from Arnold Fruchtenbaum's "Eight covenants of the Bible" study.

              IMO, it ultimately doesn't matter when there is no Mosaic stuff going on, because they don't save anyone anyway, only grace thru faith does at any time.
              the Mosaic stuff had it's roll to play in God's plans and in bringing the Messiah, etc. but that specific covenant was always only to be for a time.
              There were Jews who understood that then, and there are Jews who understand that now.
              God is perfectly capable of saving whoever He darn well choses to, and He doesn't need us to succeed in keeping a Law to do it.
              Last edited by American Gothic; 04-19-19, 04:31 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                But wait a second. Put yourself in their shoes.
                That's easy -
                I'm a sinner who has no ability to save myself, and has nothing to contribute to my salvation except my sin - same as them.
                I fault them same as I fault me, as I would have done no better.
                That would be their only excuse, "sorry God, I was wrong, and I now need your mercy and grace and without it I am nothing."
                That's right, we are all no different - it's not me to fault them, it's a Holy God to fault us.

                He was the Messiah and they should have known -
                After He silenced the Sadducees, after He silenced the Pharisees, not sure He silenced all the scribes (lawyers never shut up)
                they inspected the Lamb and could find no fault with it at all and it was ready to be killed
                after He did all that He needed to do, and after He had said all He needed to say
                at His trial He was silent.

                He said one thing point blank right to their faces - that yes, He was the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
                and they rejected Him anyway. (As He knew full well they would do.)

                Our nature is to rebel against God, to seek our own way not His, to love darkness rather than light, to choose the wrong even when we know full well it is wrong.

                And call me Calvinistic, but IMO no one will believe unless God gives them the gift of faith.
                There has always been Jews who believe, but the majority are usually in the wrong and there is Biblical precedent for that.
                Last edited by American Gothic; 04-19-19, 05:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                  What is it about?
                  Just them talking about stuff, not politics much...the Bible in our culture, Judaism and Christianity (mostly the later as he is the guest)
                  It's amazing to watch Ben listen so intently...the whole Sunday series of interviews is really good, but mostly social-political in nature
                  If that dude ever became a believer in Jesus - oh man...

                  If watched, do so on Ben's The Daily Wire YouTube channel proper - the hour nine minute version
                  even if you don't really dig everything about MacArthur...
                  you can always laugh at Ben's intra-interview commercials.
                  Last edited by American Gothic; 04-19-19, 05:11 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by joline View Post


                    And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
                    That is not something only Jesus could do.

                    Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
                    Deuteronomy 30:11-14


                    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                      That's easy -
                      I'm a sinner who has no ability to save myself, and has nothing to contribute to my salvation except my sin - same as them.
                      I fault them same as I fault me, as I would have done no better.
                      That would be their only excuse, "sorry God, I was wrong, and I now need your mercy and grace and without it I am nothing."
                      That's right, we are all no different - it's not me to fault them, it's a Holy God to fault us.

                      He was the Messiah and they should have known -
                      After He silenced the Sadducees, after He silenced the Pharisees, not sure He silenced all the scribes (lawyers never shut up)
                      they inspected the Lamb and could find no fault with it at all and it was ready to be killed
                      after He did all that He needed to do, and after He had said all He needed to say
                      at His trial He was silent.

                      He said one thing point blank right to their faces - that yes, He was the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
                      and they rejected Him anyway. (As He knew full well they would do.)

                      Our nature is to rebel against God, to seek our own way not His, to love darkness rather than light, to choose the wrong even when we know full well it is wrong.

                      And call me Calvinistic, but IMO no one will believe unless God gives them the gift of faith.
                      There has always been Jews who believe, but the majority are usually in the wrong and there is Biblical precedent for that.
                      Sorry, but unless one has the freedom to choose, one has no moral culpability. Without moral culpability it would be unjust to punish. That's the main reason Calvinism is a bunch of hooey.

                      You know the line by now. They didn't recognize him as messiah because he didn't do the things the messiah is to do. Even Christians say, "Oh well, he'll do those things the next time he comes."
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                        Sorry, but unless
                        They were wrong.in their assessment of the Messiah.
                        Same as the majority didn't get on the Ark, same as the majority didn't want to go into the Land - the majority is often wrong, so says God's Word.

                        You have freedom to choose like Adam did, but by nature, we now are inclined to make the wrong choice. "Few find it"
                        It just isn't yours to judge, it is God's to judge.
                        Last edited by American Gothic; 04-20-19, 02:33 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by joline View Post
                          And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
                          If Jews are truly circumcised in heart they believe the Messiah.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by American Gothic View Post

                            If Jews are truly circumcised in heart they believe the Messiah.
                            Yep..... The Israel of God
                            Last edited by joline; 04-21-19, 02:15 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                              That is not something only Jesus could do.

                              Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
                              Deuteronomy 30:11-14

                              His yoke is easy.....

                              Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

                              Lu 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
                              Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


                              Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
                              2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
                              3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
                              4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
                              5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
                              Acts 2:
                              5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem


                              Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
                              6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.




                              Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.




                              Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
                              Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
                              1 Pet 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
                              11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
                              12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

                              Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
                              Last edited by joline; 04-21-19, 02:38 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post


                                That is not something only Jesus could do.
                                Really? what other man circumcised men's hearts, manifesting God in himself doing that work without hands before?
                                Or this?????
                                Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


                                Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

                                Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

                                Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
                                Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
                                Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

                                Heb 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
                                20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


                                What other man had done that before?

                                Was Jesus not God in the flesh O.H?
                                Last edited by joline; 04-21-19, 04:01 AM.

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