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hello , its about john wesley , did he deny justification by faith alone?

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  • hello , its about john wesley , did he deny justification by faith alone?

    i know john believe that one can lose it salvation , and if so doesn't that say he doesn't believe in justification by faith alone and then wouldn't that also mean if the lord didn't discipline him for teaching this, doesn't that mean he was never a Christian ?

  • #2
    This may help

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/d...d-always-saved
    Your life has shown you to your flock as a rule of faith, an image of gentleness, and a teacher of moderation. You acquired greatness through humility and wealth through poverty. [source: Troparion of St.Nicholas (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

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    • #3
      courious joe"
      In our Wesleyan-Arminian theology, as in all mainstream Christian theology, salvation still isn't ours to possess. It is always and only God who saves. In that sense we cannot "lose" salvation. But we can "fall away" from it. Or to use another metaphor, we can move so far from the saving streams of God's love and power that we parch and spiritually die. The consistent focus of Wesley's teaching, however, is far less the warning about the possibility of such death and thus ultimately Hell (though he does not shrink from offering such warnings upon occasion, even as noted in the quote above), but rather upon the consistent, unfailing grace of the God revealed in Scripture and in the person of Jesus Christ, the God who is abounding in mercy and steadfast love." curious joe got this from the link .
      what he says about john Wesley , concerning my question is answered by this , and quoting from that link .
      (though he does not shrink from offering such warnings upon occasion)



      so here is another question if a person can lose his salvation , how ?

      is it by not obeying the commands of Christ ?
      and if the answer is yes
      then are you teaching one has to maintain his justification by the works of the law ?
      that if you don't keep the commands by not lying and steal and so on, your going to lose your justification ?

      to maintain that justification by the works of the law , doesn't that mean your paying God back for your justification , because your doing something
      to keep it, and if you believe this , then your putting your self under the law , and doesn't being under the mean you have to maintain your justification by the law,
      as adam and eve were under the law , because we see they lost there right standing before God , and Jesus was under the law to redeem us from the curse that the law brings, if we don't obey. paul the apotlse said we are no longer under the law, when it comes to our justification, because no one can maintain or earn there salvation ,

      and if john welsey believed he was under the law in this sense then hes going against the teachings of paul .
      Last edited by Forgodsglory12; 05-08-18, 09:41 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Forgodsglory12 View Post
        i know john believe that one can lose it salvation , and if so doesn't that say he doesn't believe in justification by faith alone and then wouldn't that also mean if the lord didn't discipline him for teaching this, doesn't that mean he was never a Christian ?
        One of John Wesley's sermons is titled "Justification by Faith." You can read it online at this link. It is on Romans 4:5, "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." In answer to the question "what is justification," Wesley answers:

        5. The plain scriptural notion of justification is pardon, the forgiveness of sins. It is that act of God the Father, hereby, for the sake of the propitiation made by the blood of his Son, he "showeth forth his righteousness (or mercy) by the remission of the sins that are past." This is the easy, natural account of it given by St. Paul, throughout this whole epistle. So he explains it himself, more particularly in this and in the following chapter. Thus, in the next verses but one to the text, "Blessed are they," saith he, "whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." To him that is justified or forgiven, God "will not impute sin" to his condemnation. He will not condemn him on that account, either in this world or in that which is to come. His sins, all his past sins, in thought, word, and deed, are covered, are blotted out, shall not be remembered or mentioned against him, any more than if they had not been. God will not inflict on that sinner what he deserved to suffer, because the Son of his love hath suffered for him. And from the time we are "accepted through the Beloved," "reconciled to God through his blood," he loves, and blesses, and watches over us for good, even as if we had never sinned.
        Wesley goes on to answer the question, "Who are they that are justified?" He says:

        . . . And the Apostle tells us expressly, the ungodly: "He (that is, God) justifieth the ungodly;" the ungodly of every kind and degree; and none but the ungodly. As "they that are righteous need no repentance," so they need no forgiveness. It is only sinners that have any occasion for pardon: It is sin alone which admits of being forgiven. Forgiveness, therefore, has an immediate reference to sin, and, in this respect, to nothing else. It is our "unrighteousness" to which the pardoning God is "merciful:" It is our "iniquity" which he "remembereth no more."

        2. This seems not to be at all considered by those who so vehemently contend that a man must be sanctified, that is, holy, before he can be justified; especially by such of them as affirm, that universal holiness or obedience must precede justification. (Unless they mean that justification at the last day, which is wholly out of the present question.) So far from it, that the very supposition is not only flatly impossible, (for where there is no love of God, there is no holiness, and there is no love of God but from a sense of his loving us,) but also grossly, intrinsically absurd, contradictory to itself. For it is not a saint but a sinner that is forgiven, and under the notion of a sinner. God justifieth not the godly, but the ungodly; not those that are holy already, but the unholy. Upon what condition he doeth this, will be considered quickly: but whatever it is, it cannot be holiness. To assert this, is to say the Lamb of God takes away only those sins which were taken away before.
        He then answers the objection that unjustified people can do good works:

        5. If it be objected, "Nay, but a man, before he is justified, may feed the hungry, or clothe the naked; and these are good works;" the answer is easy: He may do these, even before he is justified; and these are, in one sense, "good works;" they are "good and profitable to men." But it does not follow, that they are, strictly speaking, good in themselves, or good in the sight of God. All truly "good works" (to use the words of our Church) "follow after justification;" and they are therefore good and "acceptable to God in Christ," because they "spring out of a true and living faith." By a parity of reason, all "works done before justification are not good," in the Christian sense, "forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ;" (though from some kind of faith in God they may spring,) "yea, rather, for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not" (how strange soever it may appear to some) "but they have the nature of sin."

        6. Perhaps those who doubt of this have not duly considered the weighty reason which is here assigned, why no works done before justification can be truly and properly good. The argument plainly runs thus: --

        No works are good, which are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done.

        But no works done before justification are done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done:

        Therefore, no works done before justification are good.

        The first proposition is self-evident; and the second, that no works done before justification are done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, will appear equally plain and undeniable, if we only consider, God hath willed and commanded that "all our works" should "be done in charity;" (en agape) in love, in that love to God which produces love to all mankind. But none of our works can be done in this love, while the love of the Father (of God as our Father) is not in us; and this love can not be in us till we receive the "Spirit of Adoption, crying in , our hearts, Abba, Father." If, therefore, God doth not "justify the ungodly," and him that (in this sense) "worketh not," then hath Christ died in vain; then, notwithstanding his death, can no flesh living be justified.
        Wesley then addresses the question "On what terms are we justified?" He says:

        On one alone; which is faith: He "believeth is Him that justifieth the ungodly." And "he that believeth is not condemned;" yea, he is "passed from death unto life." "For the righteousness (or mercy) of God is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: --Whom God hath set forth for a propitiation, through faith in his blood; that he might be just, and" (consistently with his justice) "the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus:" "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law;" without previous obedience to the moral law, which, indeed, he could not, till now, perform. That it is the moral law, and that alone, which is here intended, appears evidently from the words that follow: "Do we then make void the law through faith God forbid: Yea, we establish the law. What law do we establish by faith Not the ritual law: Not the ceremonial law of Moses. In nowise; but the great, unchangeable law of love, the holy love of God and of our neighbour." . . .

        Justifying faith implies, not only a divine evidence or conviction that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself;" but a sure trust and confidence that Christ died for "my" sins, that he loved "me," and gave himself for "me." And at what time soever a sinner thus believes, be it in early childhood, in the strength of his years, or when he is old and hoary-haired, God justifieth that ungodly one: God, for the sake of his Son, pardoneth and absolveth him, who had in him, till then, no good thing. Repentance, indeed, God had given him before; but that repentance was neither more nor less than a deep sense of the want of all good, and the presence of all evil. And whatever good he hath, or doeth, from that hour when he first believes in God through Christ, faith does not "find," but "bring." This is the fruit of faith. First the tree is good, and then the fruit is good also.
        Therefore, Wesley clearly believes in justification by faith alone.
        I'm an evangelical, classical Pentecostal

        "I know what constituted an evangelical in former times; I have no clear notion what constitutes one now." ~ 7th Earl of Shaftesbury

        Relax, stay calm, and no matter what happens don't feed the trolls.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Forgodsglory12 View Post
          so here is another question if a person can lose his salvation , how ?
          From the same sermon linked above:

          3. I cannot describe the nature of this faith better than in the words of our own Church: "The only instrument of salvation" (whereof justification is one branch) "is faith; that is, a sure trust and confidence that God both hath and will forgive our sins, that he hath accepted us again into His favour, for the merits of Christ's death and passion. --But here we must take heed that we do not halt with God, through an inconstant, wavering faith: Peter, coming to Christ upon the water, because he fainted in faith, was in danger of drowning; so we, if we begin to waver or doubt, it is to be feared that we shall sink as Peter did, not into the water, but into the bottomless pit of hell fire." ("Second Sermon on the Passion")

          "Therefore, have a sure and constant faith, not only that the death of Christ is available for all the world, but that he hath made a full and sufficient sacrifice for "thee," a perfect cleansing of "thy" sins, so that thou mayest say, with the Apostle, he loved "thee," and gave himself for "thee." For this is to make Christ "thine own," and to apply his merits unto "thyself." ("Sermon on the Sacrament, First Part")
          I'm an evangelical, classical Pentecostal

          "I know what constituted an evangelical in former times; I have no clear notion what constitutes one now." ~ 7th Earl of Shaftesbury

          Relax, stay calm, and no matter what happens don't feed the trolls.

          Comment

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