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  • #16
    Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

    That "no one UNDERSTANDS" who is present in the assembly, is w/o question the correct meaning, as is made plainly evident by the absolute need of the gift of interpretation of tongues, as well as Paul's use of analogies (non-recognizable sounds played from musical instruments [vv. 7-9] and non-recognizable spoken foreign languages [vv. 10-12]).

    [Perhaps YOU (in your ignorance and poor teaching) do not question the meaning of the word 'understand' in that passage, but those who write lexicons and Bible dictionaries KNOW the meaning of the GREEK term, and they ALL AGREE that it means the words are not HEARD.
    WITHOUT HEARING there is no intelligent MEANING to the hearer, and the sounds will not be recognized. 'Damen' in German might be meaningless to you if you don't speak German, but to a German SPEAKER it means 'women's bathroom.' Da man better not go in there. He needs to have an interpreter if he doesn't speak German.

    NOT ONE WORD IN THE PASSAGE refers to any 'magical/mysterious/not-recognizable-by-anyone-anywhere language. You have to LIE to claim it does. . .even in the ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS.]


    Indeed, as has been pointed out to you numerous times in the past, the gift of interpretation of tongues presupposes that no one present understands the tongue spoken.

    [Of course it does NOT presuppose any such thing in the original language. What it DOES SAY is that IT CANNOT BE HEARD. NEITHER DOES IT SAY that it is any 'magic-mystery-language' that nobody knows, there OR ANYWHERE ELSE. In Acts 2 it was languages the hearers DID HEAR, and it was in the languages they spoke at home. No 'magical mysterious languages' here. Simply stuff like French, spoken in such a way as not to be heard. Your dependence upon the limitations of the ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS is pathetic. Pentecostals are SO superstitious!]

    That Paul limits tongues-speaking publicly in the church to only when an interpreter is present, further underscores this very point.

    27 "If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

    IF a REGULAR HUMAN TONGUE is spoken in ANY CONGREGATION OF PEOPLE ANYWHERE that is not spoken by even one of the hearers, someone needs to translate/interpret for that person.

    THE WHOLE MESSAGE is NOT that tongues is some kind of magical/mysterious/not understandable by anyone anywhere language.

    PAUL'S WHOLE MESSAGE IS that speech without UNDERSTANDING is WORTHLESS

    In short, there is nothing in 1 Cor 12-14 that remotely suggests Paul believed the gift of different kinds of tongues was understandable to the hearers present in any scenario.
    Except of course in ACTS 2 (let the BIBLE explain the BIBLE, don't just limit it to your pathetic one sentence or short passage) THEY DID UNDERSTAND.

    NO 'magica/mystical/mysterious 'babbling' language there. . .

    FAR FROM what you get at modern-day 'pentecostal', voodoo witch doctor, or 'oneness' places.

    Your modern-day 'pentecostals' are so easily fooled into superstition! I am certain satan is pleased with that.


    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by spokenword View Post
      You want to wrestle with God than knock yourself out. You are not teachable.I,m done fishing with you and tired of the big mouth bass on this site.
      Sorry bubba, but I don't wrestle with God AT ALL. I certainly AM teachable; I learn from God's Word (the BIBLE) a LOT every day. YOU ought to try it.

      Just because YOU want to ignore the CLEAR TEACHINGS of the BIBLE (love God, love my neighbor, serve God, serve my neighbor) you may. IF you decide to CONTINUE to follow your superstitious behaviors, I can't stop you.

      It's up to YOU.
      God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

      I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Morefish View Post

        Sorry bubba, but I don't wrestle with God AT ALL. I certainly AM teachable; I learn from God's Word (the BIBLE) a LOT every day. YOU ought to try it.

        Just because YOU want to ignore the CLEAR TEACHINGS of the BIBLE (love God, love my neighbor, serve God, serve my neighbor) you may. IF you decide to CONTINUE to follow your superstitious behaviors, I can't stop you.

        It's up to YOU.
        Does "neighbor" mean only those with whom you are in perfect agreement?
        Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

        Comment


        • #19
          Curious Joe replied
          08-29-18, 11:03 AM
          Originally posted by Morefish View Post
          Sorry bubba, but I don't wrestle with God AT ALL. I certainly AM teachable; I learn from God's Word (the BIBLE) a LOT every day. YOU ought to try it.

          Just because YOU want to ignore the CLEAR TEACHINGS of the BIBLE (love God, love my neighbor, serve God, serve my neighbor) you may. IF you decide to CONTINUE to follow your superstitious behaviors, I can't stop you.

          It's up to YOU.
          Does "neighbor" mean only those with whom you are in perfect agreement?
          No Joseph, I even love YOU as my brother (assuming you are a Christian), though I disagree with you OFTEN.
          God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

          I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Morefish View Post

            Except of course in ACTS 2 (let the BIBLE explain the BIBLE, don't just limit it to your pathetic one sentence or short passage) THEY DID UNDERSTAND.
            Neither the "tongues-speakers" nor the 'Local' or 'Resident' Jews understood at Pentecost.

            NO 'magica/mystical/mysterious 'babbling' language there. . .
            Actually, it was mysterious to the speakers and 'local' or 'resident' Jews at Pentecost.

            FAR FROM what you get at modern-day 'pentecostal', voodoo witch doctor, or 'oneness' places.

            Your modern-day 'pentecostals' are so easily fooled into superstition! I am certain satan is pleased with that.


            How would you know, seeing that you are not a linguist who is versed in every possible language known to man. You're just miffed because you don't have a demonstrably true spirit-baptism example to support your silent spirit-baptism experience.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Morefish View Post

              No Joseph, I even love YOU as my brother (assuming you are a Christian), though I disagree with you OFTEN.
              "Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth" (1 John 3:18, ESV)

              Comment


              • #22
                orever4truth replied
                08-30-18, 09:16 AM
                Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                Except of course in ACTS 2 (let the BIBLE explain the BIBLE, don't just limit it to your pathetic one sentence or short passage) THEY DID UNDERSTAND.
                Neither the "tongues-speakers" nor the 'Local' or 'Resident' Jews understood at Pentecost.

                NO 'magica/mystical/mysterious 'babbling' language there. . .
                Actually, it was mysterious to the speakers and 'local' or 'resident' Jews at Pentecost.

                FAR FROM what you get at modern-day 'pentecostal', voodoo witch doctor, or 'oneness' places.

                Your modern-day 'pentecostals' are so easily fooled into superstition! I am certain satan is pleased with that.
                How would you know, seeing that you are not a linguist who is versed in every possible language known to man. You're just miffed because you don't have a demonstrably true spirit-baptism example to support your silent spirit-baptism experience.
                As usual, you speak from ignorance. Even a normal CHILD recognizes gibberish which is all you have, so nobody needs to be a linguist, versed in every possible language known to man. I have been tri-lingual and am working on Koine Greek which will be my 4th.

                What languages do YOU speak that makes you think you are an expert? At least I have studied language, language formation etc at our local state University, and I have taught ESL (English as a second language0 aka Ell (English as a learned language) to folks who were Vietnamese, Kurdish, and Spanish. What language (s) have YOU taught?

                I don't need to claim to be an expert linguist, but I most likely DO know more about the subject than YOU do.

                "Miffed?" Why would I be 'miffed' just because YOU make idiotic false claims against me? It would be a waste of time and energy.

                I have CERTAINLY received a TRUE Holy Spirit baptism, just as EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has been PROMISED BY GOD (Acts 2:39, Romans 8:29b)

                It looks like you are ignorant of what the BIBLE teaches on the subject.

                The BIBLE says that EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has the Holy Spiritl alive, well, POWERFUL and HE IS GOD LIVING WITHIN each of us. He is neither impotent nor neglectful of us, teaching us, leading us, guiding us, providing ALL of our needs.

                No gibberish required. YOU are just miffed because you cannot foist your FAKE tongues on us NORMAL Christians.
                God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Morefish View Post


                  IF you were to speak to me in a REAL tongue such as FRENCH, you would need to have it interpreted too, IF YOU WANTED ME TO UNDERSTAND what was said.

                  Your use of such a 'loose' translation reflects how poorly you are taught by your handlers.

                  What you bleat 'in so-called tongues' is meaningless gibberish TO YOU TOO. YOU have no idea if there is HONEST MEANING there at all.

                  Morefish, why the hostility?

                  The first gift you challenged us on was the "Gift of Tongues", which you confuse with a prayer language. Nevertheless you asked, "There is NO 'private prayer language' ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE". You have been given substantial reason to reconsider your point.

                  Now, you apparently misunderstand the "Gift of Interpretation". My friend the gift is not the "Gift of Translation" nor is it a "loose translation, it is the "Gift of Interpretation".

                  May I suggest you simply re-evaluate your your objection really is because there is something missing in your arguments.

                  Kindly,
                  Audock

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    [QUOTE]Audock replied
                    09-03-18, 07:59 PM
                    Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                    IF you were to speak to me in a REAL tongue such as FRENCH, you would need to have it interpreted too, IF YOU WANTED ME TO UNDERSTAND what was said.

                    Your use of such a 'loose' translation reflects how poorly you are taught by your handlers.

                    What you bleat 'in so-called tongues' is meaningless gibberish TO YOU TOO. YOU have no idea if there is HONEST MEANING there at all.
                    Morefish, why the hostility?

                    [No hostility. Simply HONEST reading of SCRIPTURE.
                    Can't answer the questions? Why so hostile? ]


                    The first gift you challenged us on was the "Gift of Tongues", which you confuse with a prayer language. Nevertheless you asked, "There is NO 'private prayer language' ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE". You have been given substantial reason to reconsider your point.

                    [ First off, no confusion at all. Your 'magical/mythical/mystical/prayer language is supposedly IN TONGUES, and does not occur in the BIBLE AT ALL.

                    Secondly your claim that I ASKED
                    "There is NO 'private prayer language' ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE" which is NOT A QUESTION AT ALL, BUT A STATEMENT OF TRUTH. And you can't seem to find one. That is not a 'question' either. . .it is a STATEMENT OF TRUTH.]

                    Now, you apparently misunderstand the "Gift of Interpretation". My friend the gift is not the "Gift of Translation" nor is it a "loose translation, it is the "Gift of Interpretation".

                    [You are confused by the English TRANSLATION. The original-language Greek word your translation "interpretation" MEANS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. . ."translation." It is what they do at the international conferences. . .translate from one language to another.

                    It DOES NOT MEAN "magical/mystical/mythical/gibberish changer-into-English."]


                    [Does YOUR GOD talk to Himself? Does he make noises out of your flappy lips that YOU have NOTHING TO DO WITH except to flap your lips and your vocal chords, talking to HIMSELF? The God of the Bible doesn't require YOUR flappy lips for the Holy Spirit to speak]

                    May I suggest you simply re-evaluate your your objection really is because there is something missing in your arguments.

                    The only thing 'missing' is YOUR UNDERSTANDING. The Holy Spirit is alive and well LIVING POWERFULLY within EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE. No pentecostalbabble required. . .
                    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                      [B]Except of course in ACTS 2 (let the BIBLE explain the BIBLE, don't just limit it to your pathetic one sentence or short passage) THEY DID UNDERSTAND....snip.
                      As has been pointed out you before, Acts 2:13 ("Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine") clearly intimates that there were people (the 'local' or 'resident' Jews) at Pentecost who did not understand a lick of the foreign tongues spoken at Pentecost.

                      "Verse 13 states that "others" (heteroi), ANOTHER group from that already described, made the accusation of drunkenness. It is stated very clearly that there were TWO basic groups of individuals present--i.e., those who recognized the languages and others who thought the speakers were drunk.

                      Thomas R. Edgar, Miraculous Gifts: Are they for today? (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1983) p 125

                      Keep in mind that Thomas R. Edgar is a bonafide anti-Charismatic.


                      "Matthew Poole's Commentary

                      "Others; viz. the scribes and Pharisees, and also the inhabitants of Jewry and Jerusalem; who not understanding the languages of other nations, might think the apostles did but babble, and talk idly or rudely, when they spake with other tongues."

                      Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

                      "Others mocking, said,.... These were the native inhabitants of Jerusalem, the common people; and it may be also the Scribes and Pharisees, who did not understand the languages in which the apostles spake, and therefore derided them both by words and gestures:"

                      Pulpit Commentary

                      Verse 13. - But others for others, A.V. ; they are filled with for these men are full of, A.V. New wine; more literally, sweet wine. These mockers, men incapable of serious and devout appreciation of the work of the Holy Spirit, attributed the tension of feeling which they saw, and the unintelligible words which they heard, to the effect of wine"

                      Vincent's Word Studies
                      Others (ἕτεροι)

                      Of a different class
                      . The first who commented on the wonder did so curiously, but with no prejudice. Those who now spoke did so in a hostile spirit. See on Acts 2:4.

                      https://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/2-13.htm Wesley's Explanatory Notes:

                      But others mocking The world begins with mocking, thence proceeds to cavilling, Acts 4:7; to threats, 4:17; to imprisoning, Acts 5:18; blows, 5:40; to slaughter, Acts 7:58. These mockers appear to have been some of the natives of Judea, and inhabitants of Jerusalem, (who understood only the dialect of the country,) by the apostle's immediately directing his discourse to them in the next verse.

                      Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary 13. ἕτεροι] Probably native Jews, who did not understand the foreign languages.

                      https://www.studylight.org/commentary/acts/2-13.html

                      Finally, as I already stumped you on this before, which foreign languages did the Galilean disciples speak that were unknown to them but were known to 'local' or 'resident' Jews at Pentecost? Remember, speaking in tongues means speaking by the power of the spirit in languages that one has never learned.

                      Once again, your markedly reductionistic method of interpreting scripture is exposed for all to see.



                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                        [COLOR=#006400]As usual, you speak from ignorance. Even a normal CHILD recognizes gibberish which is all you have, so nobody needs to be a linguist, versed in every possible language known to man. I have been tri-lingual and am working on Koine Greek which will be my 4th. snip...
                        You don't know what you're talking about, as tongues are said by Paul to be spoken to God, not to people, as NO ONE [present] UNDERSTANDS them, which clearly shows that the gift of different kinds of tongues are by design not recognizable. Hence why Paul adamantly forbids the public use of tongues w/o interpretation, and hence his use of the analogies of non-recognizable sounds of musical instruments and non-recognizable foreign languages in vv. 7-11.

                        Indeed, if what you are saying is true, it stands to reason that Paul in 1 Cor 14 would have put something in place to judge/test whether or not a tongue was from or not from God.

                        or example, in 1 Cor 14:29, Paul says, "Two or three prophets should speak and the others should evaluate what is said" (1 Cor 14:29, NET). You will note that Paul never subjects speaking in tongues to being evaluated as to whether or not it is from God, as in, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret, and then the others should evaluate what is said." Of course, Paul never says this.

                        The obvious reason Paul never subjects tongues-speaking to evaluation for legitimacy is because you can't evaluate with any degree of certainly that which is unintelligible to the hearers; otherwise, it follows Paul would have done so.


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                          As usual, you speak from ignorance. Even a normal CHILD recognizes gibberish which is all you have, so nobody needs to be a linguist, versed in every possible language known to man. I have been tri-lingual and am working on Koine Greek which will be my 4th.

                          What languages do YOU speak that makes you think you are an expert? At least I have studied language, language formation etc at our local state University, and I have taught ESL (English as a second language0 aka Ell (English as a learned language) to folks who were Vietnamese, Kurdish, and Spanish. What language (s) have YOU taught?

                          I don't need to claim to be an expert linguist, but I most likely DO know more about the subject than YOU do.

                          "Miffed?" Why would I be 'miffed' just because YOU make idiotic false claims against me? It would be a waste of time and energy.

                          I have CERTAINLY received a TRUE Holy Spirit baptism, just as EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has been PROMISED BY GOD (Acts 2:39, Romans 8:29b)

                          It looks like you are ignorant of what the BIBLE teaches on the subject.

                          The BIBLE says that EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has the Holy Spiritl alive, well, POWERFUL and HE IS GOD LIVING WITHIN each of us. He is neither impotent nor neglectful of us, teaching us, leading us, guiding us, providing ALL of our needs.

                          No gibberish required. YOU are just miffed because you cannot foist your FAKE tongues on us NORMAL Christians.
                          Neither Acts 2:39 nor Romans 8:29 are an historical example of spirit-baptism experience, so you are still don't have a historical biblical precedent for your SILENT spirit-baptism reception.

                          Secondly, God is the One who placed tongues in the Church, and they will continue to reside in the church until Jesus comes back, and there is absolutely nothing you can ever do to change that. So mock on mocker, but know this, we are going to reap what we sow. If we sow mockery, and thus sow to the flesh, as in your case, you will one day reap destruction.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Morefish,

                            You said: You are confused by the English TRANSLATION. The original-language Greek word your translation "interpretation" MEANS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. . ."translation." It is what they do at the international conferences. . .translate from one language to another.

                            May I ask for a clarification of the sentence "The original-language Greek word your translation "interpretation" MEANS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. . ."translation."

                            I'm afraid I am missing your point.

                            Kindly,
                            Audock





                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Morefish View Post

                              As usual, you speak from ignorance. Even a normal CHILD recognizes gibberish which is all you have, so nobody needs to be a linguist, versed in every possible language known to man. I have been tri-lingual and am working on Koine Greek which will be my 4th.

                              What languages do YOU speak that makes you think you are an expert? At least I have studied language, language formation etc at our local state University, and I have taught ESL (English as a second language0 aka Ell (English as a learned language) to folks who were Vietnamese, Kurdish, and Spanish. What language (s) have YOU taught?

                              I don't need to claim to be an expert linguist, but I most likely DO know more about the subject than YOU do.

                              "Miffed?" Why would I be 'miffed' just because YOU make idiotic false claims against me? It would be a waste of time and energy.

                              I have CERTAINLY received a TRUE Holy Spirit baptism, just as EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has been PROMISED BY GOD (Acts 2:39, Romans 8:29b)

                              It looks like you are ignorant of what the BIBLE teaches on the subject.

                              The BIBLE says that EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has the Holy Spiritl alive, well, POWERFUL and HE IS GOD LIVING WITHIN each of us. He is neither impotent nor neglectful of us, teaching us, leading us, guiding us, providing ALL of our needs.

                              No gibberish required. YOU are just miffed because you cannot foist your FAKE tongues on us NORMAL Christians.
                              Chasen your tail sir, speaking of ALL CHRISTIANS quote unquote having the SPIRIT when this SPIRIT is what MAKES them Christians sir.

                              All nominal Christians sir? What is secular Christianity sir? Got any idea, LANGUAGE expert?
                              Shema will change the Christian World.

                              Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                              Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                nothead replied
                                09-05-18, 10:27 AM
                                Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                                As usual, you speak from ignorance. Even a normal CHILD recognizes gibberish which is all you have, so nobody needs to be a linguist, versed in every possible language known to man. I have been tri-lingual and am working on Koine Greek which will be my 4th.

                                What languages do YOU speak that makes you think you are an expert? At least I have studied language, language formation etc at our local state University, and I have taught ESL (English as a second language0 aka Ell (English as a learned language) to folks who were Vietnamese, Kurdish, and Spanish. What language (s) have YOU taught?

                                I don't need to claim to be an expert linguist, but I most likely DO know more about the subject than YOU do.

                                "Miffed?" Why would I be 'miffed' just because YOU make idiotic false claims against me? It would be a waste of time and energy.

                                I have CERTAINLY received a TRUE Holy Spirit baptism, just as EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has been PROMISED BY GOD (Acts 2:39, Romans 8:29b)

                                It looks like you are ignorant of what the BIBLE teaches on the subject.

                                The BIBLE says that EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE has the Holy Spiritl alive, well, POWERFUL and HE IS GOD LIVING WITHIN each of us. He is neither impotent nor neglectful of us, teaching us, leading us, guiding us, providing ALL of our needs.

                                No gibberish required. YOU are just miffed because you cannot foist your FAKE tongues on us NORMAL Christians.
                                Chasen your tail sir, speaking of ALL CHRISTIANS quote unquote having the SPIRIT when this SPIRIT is what MAKES them Christians sir.

                                [Is that the Spirit that you are LACKING? Your posts sure are LACKING IN LOVE for the Brethren of Jesus Christ.]

                                All nominal Christians sir? What is secular Christianity sir? Got any idea, LANGUAGE expert?
                                One thing at a time. . .

                                1) NORMAL Christians are Spirit-filled Christians that don't have to bleat, whinny, get tipped over by their leaders, or babble mindlessly to BE Christ followers at all.

                                2) There IS NO REAL 'secular Christianity anywhere. There are FAKES who CALL themselves 'Christians' that are not who can be EASILY FOUND. Oneness nuts are amongst those.

                                3) Your SLANDER that I somehow claimed to be a 'LANGUAGE expert (just because I likely know more about language than you do) shows the character and nature of your SLANDEROUS religion. I never made any such claim. . .but of course YOU KNEW THAT.

                                Pentecostals are SO superstitious!
                                God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

                                I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

                                Comment

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