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The gifts of the Holy Spirit are a farce according to the author of 1 Timothy.

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  • The gifts of the Holy Spirit are a farce according to the author of 1 Timothy.

    The gifts of the Holy Spirit are a farce according to the author of 1 Timothy.

    For there is one God and one Mediator
    between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
    (1 Tim 2:5).

    The theology of 'one Mediator' means,
    that there can be no manifestations of the Holy Spirit.



    I will pray the Father, and He will give you
    another Helper
    (Mediator - Louw & Nida),
    that He may abide with you forever -
    the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive
    (John 14:16-17).

    when He, the Spirit of truth, has come,
    He will guide you into all truth
    (Jn 16:13).



    .
    The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
    Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

    Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

  • #2
    This is fun...I always thought if I were going to leap from a precipice, I'd rather at least be wearing a parasail...or something. But, I see that you have a depth of courage that's quite remarkable.

    "The theology of 'one Mediator' means"...that there can be no...what? No manifestations?

    Do you think it helps your argument to change the word John chose "...He will give you another Helper (parakletos)" to "mediator"?

    Do you think it's really possible to guide someone into all truth without ever manifesting oneself? Do you really believe that guidance by the Holy Spirit is a farce...or is it just not a gift?

    I'm always entertained by these twists...and wonder why you go to such great length to prove that God did not actually mean what He actually said...Thanks for this post.
    Pete

    ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
      The gifts of the Holy Spirit are a farce according to the author of 1 Timothy.

      For there is one God and one Mediator
      between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
      (1 Tim 2:5).

      The theology of 'one Mediator' means,
      that there can be no manifestations of the Holy Spirit.



      I will pray the Father, and He will give you
      another Helper
      (Mediator - Louw & Nida),
      that He may abide with you forever -
      the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive
      (John 14:16-17).

      when He, the Spirit of truth, has come,
      He will guide you into all truth
      (Jn 16:13).



      .

      Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
      This is fun...

      Do you think it helps your argument to change the word John chose "...He will give you another Helper (parakletos)" to "mediator"?
      Considering me to be deceived shouldn't be fun for you
      and if it were true then it certainly wouldn't be fun for me.

      The bible scholars Louw and Nida
      translate another Helper, as another Mediator.

      They too are ridiculed in that reply by another Pentecostal,
      who doesn't ask the indwelling Holy Spirit for clarification,
      so He could mediate
      before that expression of foot in mouth disease.

      Pentecostals wouldn't have to appear as theology-lites,
      if only they made use of asking God
      and not leaning so much on their experiences,
      which don't prove a thing for people come to Christ by the word of God.

      Sir, you have no case.










      The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
      Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

      Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




        Considering me to be deceived shouldn't be fun for you
        and if it were true then it certainly wouldn't be fun for me
        .
        If you read the Bible like your read my post, I understand why you're having difficulty misunderstanding the Bible.

        If you're post is fun, it inspires a comment. Forgive me...few with whom I enjoy conversation can find enjoyment insulting...but we're in an age where it's far easier to seize offense from trivia than to forgive it.
        The bible scholars Louw and Nida
        translate another Helper, as another Mediator.

        Then their scholarship is suspect...if only its apparent presumption.

        Parakletos has the idea of companion...one called to be alongside...not a go between.
        They too are ridiculed in that reply by another Pentecostal,
        who doesn't ask the indwelling Holy Spirit for clarification,
        so He could mediate
        before that expression of foot in mouth disease.
        [
        Not sure what you mean here...was I supposed to get offended by the facile comment? I won't...I'm here to enjoy the discourse.

        Pentecostals wouldn't have to appear as theology-lites,
        if only they made use of asking God
        and not leaning so much on their experiences,
        which don't prove a thing for people come to Christ by the word of God.

        Sir, you have no case.
        Again, I don't know to what you refer...or to what Pentecostals you refer. Certainly your indictment of all Pentecostals echoes the presumption of Chantry, Bruner, MacArthur, Hoekema...Unger...all of whom quote each other to make their allegation, and base their own theology and their charges on their lack of experience, and not on the clear writing of scripture...Indeed, MacArthur goes to great lengths to create an almost Roman Catholic doctrine of lack of experience based on the historic lack of any inspiration in the church that was shepherded for centuries by Rome. He ironically calls it the "historic 'principle' of Biblical interpretation."

        I have no theology based on experience. I have forty years of experience that corroborates my theology...not having any experience at all, indeed eschewing all experience...your presumption is made even more vapid than your charges against us.

        Finally...as to whether or not I believe you deceived, I see you have chosen to defend your own unbelief using the experiences around you, and to walk by what you see, and not by what He has said. I believe your own eyes are wide open to your choice, and therefore you've chosen your path. I believe that choice is worthy of discussion and perhaps some debate. Remember...you posted dangerous accusations of "farce..." which you will eventually have to defend. It's best to do this with eyes wide open to all possible consequences.
        Last edited by tbeachhead; 12-19-18, 08:13 AM.
        Pete

        ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

        Comment


        • #5
          The bible scholars Louw and Nida
          translate another Helper, as another Mediator.


          Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
          Then their scholarship is suspect...if only its apparent presumption.

          Parakletos has the idea of companion...one called to be alongside...not a go between.
          Not sure what you mean here...was I supposed to get offended by the facile comment? I won't...I'm here to enjoy the discourse.
          Pentecostal theology-lites correct Greek scholars by opinion.
          I knew that I encountered a heavy-weight.


          Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
          When the critic bases his theology solely on his own private criticism...you know you're in for an entertaining conversation.

          The Spirit isn't called to be 'alongside' but to dwell within
          and without His MEDIATION there is no contact with God at all.

          This means that a perverted gospel is preached.


          .





          Last edited by Conqueror; 12-19-18, 05:27 PM.
          The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
          Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

          Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
            The bible scholars Louw and Nida
            translate another Helper, as another Mediator.
            Fine...everybody has their moments. Granting them the moniker doesn't make scholars of them. The Greek for mediator is μεσίτης, (mésités), and it's not synonymous with paraklétos at all...They can make whatever claim they want to, but they're flying in the face of some of the most standard setting of Greek scholarship I'm aware of, e.g. Strong's and Thayers...and with the wonder of the internet, you can follow the links and wind up in a wonderful study of the clear difference between the two...

            You're welcome to disagree...I have been known on this forum to strongly disagree with some of the most common translations, which I have proven to be erroneous despite the copious support in scholarship of the counter claims. I simply am at a loss to find anyone at all who agrees that mediator and companion are the same thing.

            Pentecostal theology-lites correct Greek scholars by opinion.
            I knew that I encountered a heavy-weight.
            Or by resources...I'm sure you want me to be impressed by your courage in pointing out my flaws here. Not sure why that's such an important part of your discourse, but at least you know it's been noticed.

            When I deviated, I made only reference to the Greek...and I stood my ground, because the grammatical case in question, the genitive, was being misrepresented in the claims of scholarship, despite the fact that my choice in the translation is considered first usage as the genitive is concerned.

            It was no biggy...I lost the argument because no scholar agreed...The only one who agreed at that time was the native Greek speaker, to whom the folks in the thread said, "You can't possibly know Greek...You're a native speaker." And he'd only been using the actual Koine in his church since he was born...
            The Spirit isn't called to be 'alongside' but to dwell within
            and without His MEDIATION there is no contact with God at all.

            This means that a perverted gospel is preached.

            .
            You're arguing with Jesus who chose the term...and the evangelists who transcribed it in Greek...Jesus is called the mésités, btw...
            Last edited by tbeachhead; 12-20-18, 01:23 PM.
            Pete

            ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

              Fine...everybody has their moments. Granting them the moniker doesn't make scholars of them. The Greek for mediator is μεσίτης, (mésités), and it's not synonymous with paraklétos at all...They can make whatever claim they want to, but they're flying in the face of some of the most standard setting of Greek scholarship I'm aware of, e.g. Strong's and Thayers...and with the wonder of the internet, you can follow the links and wind up in a wonderful study of the clear difference between the two...

              You're welcome to disagree...I have been known on this forum to strongly disagree with some of the most common translations, which I have proven to be erroneous despite the copious support in scholarship of the counter claims. I simply am at a loss to find anyone at all who agrees that mediator and companion are the same thing.


              Or by resources...I'm sure you want me to be impressed by your courage in pointing out my flaws here. Not sure why that's such an important part of your discourse, but at least you know it's been noticed.

              When I deviated, I made only reference to the Greek...and I stood my ground, because the grammatical case in question, the genitive, was being misrepresented in the claims of scholarship, despite the fact that my choice in the translation is considered first usage as the genitive is concerned.

              It was no biggy...I lost the argument because no scholar agreed...The only one who agreed at that time was the native Greek speaker, to whom the folks in the thread said, "You can't possibly know Greek...You're a native speaker." And he'd only been using the actual Koine in his church since he was born...
              You're arguing with Jesus who chose the term...and the evangelists who transcribed it in Greek...Jesus is called the mésités, btw...
              You're confusing them with the facts.

              Welcome back, you've been missed.
              Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

              Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

              Comment


              • #8

                Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
                The bible scholars Louw and Nida
                translate another Helper, as another Mediator.

                Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

                Fine...everybody has their moments. Granting them the moniker doesn't make scholars of them. The Greek for mediator is μεσίτης, (mésités), and it's not synonymous with paraklétos at all...They can make whatever claim they want to, but they're flying in the face of some of the most standard setting of Greek scholarship I'm aware of, e.g. Strong's and Thayers...and with the wonder of the internet, you can follow the links and wind up in a wonderful study of the clear difference between the two...
                I maintain that the Spirit is a mediator,
                as the representative of Jesus.


                That the Spirit-Paraclete is introduced as “another Paraclete” implies that Jesus himself is also a Paraclete.
                Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). John (Vol. 36, p. 256). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.




                Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
                You're welcome to disagree...I have been known on this forum to strongly disagree with some of the most common translations, which I have proven to be erroneous despite the copious support in scholarship of the counter claims. I simply am at a loss to find anyone at all who agrees that mediator and companion are the same thing.
                What you have done in the past and now boast about
                isn't what a Christian would do.




                Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
                Or by resources...I'm sure you want me to be impressed by your courage in pointing out my flaws here. Not sure why that's such an important part of your discourse, but at least you know it's been noticed.

                When I deviated, I made only reference to the Greek...and I stood my ground, because the grammatical case in question, the genitive, was being misrepresented in the claims of scholarship, despite the fact that my choice in the translation is considered first usage as the genitive is concerned.

                It was no biggy...I lost the argument because no scholar agreed...The only one who agreed at that time was the native Greek speaker, to whom the folks in the thread said, "You can't possibly know Greek...You're a native speaker." And he'd only been using the actual Koine in his church since he was born...
                You're arguing with Jesus who chose the term...and the evangelists who transcribed it in Greek...Jesus is called the mésités, btw...
                I have dealt with the ranting.



                .
                The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                  I maintain that the Spirit is a mediator,
                  as the representative of Jesus.

                  Yeah well...folks seem to make it their religion to maintain whatever seems right in their own eyes. You have no scriptural support, but you don't need it, when it's you that maintains it.

                  That the Spirit-Paraclete is introduced as “another Paraclete” implies that Jesus himself is also a Paraclete.
                  Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). John (Vol. 36, p. 256). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
                  I thought you said there was nothing inspired for the last two thousand years...

                  I can't find the book of Beasley-Murray. Is that after maps? My Bible ends with the maps.

                  What you have done in the past and now boast about
                  isn't what a Christian would do.
                  Christians don't learn Greek any more?

                  Why not? I'm not boasting...I'm a linguist. I do language for a living. Greek is just one that I've enjoyed over the years...and I read the Greek...and dispute some weak renderings by other translators. The NIV is particularly egregious in its light attempts at interpretation instead of translation.

                  I have dealt with the ranting.

                  .
                  Some here might say dealt...others could suggest that you dished...and that makes it entertaining.

                  Pete

                  ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                    I maintain that the Spirit is a mediator,
                    as the representative of Jesus.


                    That the Spirit-Paraclete is introduced as “another Paraclete” implies that Jesus himself is also a Paraclete.
                    Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). John (Vol. 36, p. 256). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.



                    .[/COLOR]

                    Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

                    I thought you said there was nothing inspired for the last two thousand years...

                    I can't find the book of Beasley-Murray. Is that after maps? My Bible ends with the maps.
                    Take note;
                    it is 1900 years without inspiration, since the last apostle.

                    Beasley-Murray are merely translators
                    and suffer from the same lack of inspiration as any other linguist.
                    The display of sarcasm in the reference to maps is telling,
                    fhowever there is no sense in the apostles having made maps.



                    the MEDIATOR the Holy Spirit,
                    whom the Father will send in My name,
                    He will teach you all things
                    (Jn 14:26).

                    The Holy Spirit is the Counsellor,
                    who mediates for the Father and teaches His will.

                    Only a fool would continue the semantics without any logic.



                    .











                    Last edited by Conqueror; 12-21-18, 05:10 PM.
                    The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                    Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                    Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




                      Take note;
                      it is 1900 years without inspiration, since the last apostle.

                      Beasley-Murray are merely translators
                      and suffer from the same lack of inspiration as any other linguist.
                      The display of sarcasm in the reference to maps is telling,
                      fhowever there is no sense in the apostles having made maps.
                      Uninspired translators make uninspired guesses...like you do when you meddle with Greek to torture it into saying whatever you want it to say.

                      Since you’’re entirely uninspired by your own admission, I suggest that you are bereft of any case.

                      the MEDIATOR the Holy Spirit,
                      whom the Father will send in My name,
                      He will teach you all things
                      (Jn 14:26).

                      The Holy Spirit is the Counsellor,
                      who mediates for the Father and teaches His will.

                      Only a fool would continue the semantics without any logic.



                      .
                      Perhaps...some might suggest it’s not wisdom to invent in ignorance and call it doctrine. Joe Smith did that, and found followers. So did Charles T Russel

                      The world is not a better place for their creativity.





                      Pete

                      ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




                        Take note;
                        it is 1900 years without inspiration, since the last apostle.

                        Beasley-Murray are merely translators
                        and suffer from the same lack of inspiration as any other linguist.
                        The display of sarcasm in the reference to maps is telling,
                        fhowever there is no sense in the apostles having made maps.



                        the MEDIATOR the Holy Spirit,
                        whom the Father will send in My name,
                        He will teach you all things
                        (Jn 14:26).

                        The Holy Spirit is the Counsellor,
                        who mediates for the Father and teaches His will.

                        Only a fool would continue the semantics without any logic.



                        .
                        Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post
                        Uninspired translators make uninspired guesses...
                        Precisely.

                        The linguist couldn't have described his craft any better than that.



                        Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


                        The Spirit is a mediator, as the representative of Jesus.
                        Proper apologetics weren't offered to refute me, for that cannot be done.


                        .


                        The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                        Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                        Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Conqueror View Post



                          Precisely.

                          The linguist couldn't have described his craft any better than that.





                          Proper apologetics weren't offered to refute me, for that cannot be done.


                          .

                          Refute you for what? For believing that the Holy Spirit, the God of gods, no longer inspires anyone? I'll let God refute you on that one, my friend. Your claim is contrary to scriptures...whose inspiration you dispute, accepting your own ravings as inspired.

                          Let me ask you a simple question...if nothing you say is inspired, why should anyone here heed anything you say? What do you have to contribute to any discussion...

                          ...oh...and one more thing: Your "angel of light"...Inspired? Or naaaah?
                          Pete

                          ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

                            Refute you for what? For believing that the Holy Spirit, the God of gods, no longer inspires anyone? I'll let God refute you on that one, my friend. Your claim is contrary to scriptures...whose inspiration you dispute, accepting your own ravings as inspired.

                            Let me ask you a simple question...if nothing you say is inspired, why should anyone here heed anything you say? What do you have to contribute to any discussion...
                            There is a distinct difference between a believer being guided
                            and the apostles and prophets being inspired.

                            A linguist should know better
                            but he also went
                            BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN (1 Cor 4:6),
                            which makes him scripturally illiterate as well.


                            Originally posted by tbeachhead View Post

                            ...oh...and one more thing: Your "angel of light"...Inspired? Or naaaah?
                            I couldn't find 'naaaah' in a dictionary.
                            So much for the claim of being a linguist.
                            The abuse proves the case for scriptural illiteracy.


                            Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt,
                            that you may know how you ought to answer each one
                            (Col 4:6).


                            .







                            Last edited by Conqueror; 01-02-19, 05:56 PM.
                            The apostolic word of God by the Twelve is the highest written authority, for it binds and loosens (Mat 16-19).
                            Then the foundational prophets - NO OTHER WORKS QUALIFY

                            Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                              There is a distinct difference between a believer being guided
                              and the apostles and prophets being inspired.
                              Really...

                              And who makes the distinction, I wonder. If you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and you fail...why do you ascribe that guidance to God Himself? Hmm? How did He fail you.

                              And if you're not being guided by the Holy Spirit...what does it amount to? Sanctified guesswork? Aren't you being a little arrogant to make the claim, and charge the Holy Spirit with failing to guide you?



                              A linguist should know better
                              but he also went
                              BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN (1 Cor 4:6),
                              which makes him scripturally illiterate as well.
                              Funny thing is, a linguist knows the etymology of "spirit" and "inspired"...same root. If it's the Spirit, by definition it's inspired. If it's not...why do you even bother to seek to justify the claim with falsified semantics. Either the Spirit is active, in which case He's still infusing with his breath (again...spirit and breath are synonymous in both Greek and Hebrew)...or He's gone, and we're on our own, using what we claim to be guidance, but what clearly amounts to all kinds of blundering false bravado, and strange doctrines. and pompous peevishness.

                              I couldn't find 'naaaah' in a dictionary.
                              So much for the claim of being a linguist.
                              The abuse proves the case for scriptural illiteracy.
                              Single click...urban dictionary...It means no.

                              Glad to help.

                              Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt,
                              that you may know how you ought to answer each one
                              (Col 4:6).
                              That would be the plan...from the inspired words of one who was not counted among the twelve...
                              Pete

                              ~(8-[)}<><===> (flames of new anointing, béret, non-prescription glasses to help critics and their ilk feel more secure, mustache, beard...and tie.) I serve a God who walked this earth, for thirty years before He did a single miracle.

                              Comment

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