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Mary's perpetual virginity

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  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

    Theotokos means "God bearer". This term of honor is ********* by scripture when Elizabeth greeted an expecting Mary with these words:

    And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1:43

    The fact that Mary did not have any other children other than Jesus is confirmed in the Gospel of John:

    Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. John 19:27

    Why would Jesus ask John to take care of Mary if Mary had her own children to do that?

    Her own children were unbelievers at the time (as the Bible makes clear).

    Next question??

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mica View Post

      are you trying to say that God had a beginning? that He was born of a human? how did that human get here before God did?

      no, your Church is not God's plan of love for humanity. Christ is.

      The Person Jesus Christ had a beginning in time starting in the womb of Mary where "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14]

      Tell us about this Jesus who is born in a bubble [The Bubble God - TBG]to be protected from its mother, becoming a god after it was born, flesh possessed then nailed to a board?

      JoeT
      Sigillum Militum Χρisti
      "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
        Well I haven't read all 66 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat someone. Just to answer the OP, they already did not have a normal marriage. They had the most uniquely abnormal marriage of all time and eternity. Jesus is Lord, today, and always; because God changeth not. So that little baby worshiped by the shepherds and the wise men and whose praises were sung by thousands of adoring angels - He was not only man, but God Himself.

        So when your Lord God is in your home and is your baby, entrusted to you by God, your existence is different from the existence of any other humans who have been on earth. The overwhelming sense of fulfillment and completion from having such a Heavenly life on earth - interacting with the living speaking God himself every single day, which they experienced for 30 years vs the only 3 that the Apostles experienced. And these years reflect intimacy with God. So intimate that we don't told much at all about these times Scripture.

        But we can contemplate, and Christians have, and that is why the perpetual virginity of Mary goes back to the earliest centuries, and persists still.

        In our times we think people cannot survive without sex, but there are many reason why people do live chastely, out of circumstantial necessity, or by choice, like those who choose a chaste single life or make a vow. Sometimes this is necessity within marriage, for example, if one is not well. And they they actually don't go nuts. Sometimes, instead, they are he sanest and loftiest among us. Anyway, with God, all things are possible. And God is not mocked. When we do things God's way, even though in our minds it does not seem right, doing it God's way is always best for us, because His way is always best. That includes living chastely in a society that says that such a choice will make you go insane.

        But again, Joseph and Mary's situation was not like any marriage ever on earth. More akin to Adam and Eve when they walked with God, on earth. More heavenly. Joseph and May had the most unique vocation of all time. And they had in their life on earth, the deepest desire of all our hearts, to walk day-to-day in the living presence of the True God. Its so awesome when you think of it, that its no longer a wonder that they were not looking for alternative ways to fulfill each other off alone. Instead, I have to wonder how Mary could have even slept. Instead, she must have stayed awake and adored. And prayed, for the sorrows in her heart, and for the mission and purpose of her Son.

        _______________
        Re: "The Blessed Virgin": From Mary's song, as recorded for all time in Holy Scripture, moved by the Holy Spirit, with the Lord God in her womb: "...for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." -Luke 1:48
        Nice speech but its all an appeal to emotion. Others here have made a good case for mary and joseph having other children. Its not complicated but rather very natural and something God blesses.
        Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

          Theotokos means "God bearer". This term of honor is ********* by scripture when Elizabeth greeted an expecting Mary with these words:

          And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1:43

          The fact that Mary did not have any other children other than Jesus is confirmed in the Gospel of John:

          Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. John 19:27

          Why would Jesus ask John to take care of Mary if Mary had her own children to do that?

          Elizabeth didn't say theos which is the word for God. So no, she wasn't referring to mary as mother of god.
          Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JoeT View Post


            The Person Jesus Christ had a beginning in time starting in the womb of Mary where "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14]

            Tell us about this Jesus who is born in a bubble [The Bubble God - TBG]to be protected from its mother, becoming a god after it was born, flesh possessed then nailed to a board?

            JoeT
            only His tent of flesh had a beginning... without that 'tent', He has always existed.

            "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

            The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
              But it should serve as an education that there are those who love Jesus and accept Him as their Lord and Savior who have different views on some theological issues.
              Those useless Catholic ceremonies are supposed to save you from sin.

              You don't need Jesus.

              Pope Frankie gives you his opinion.

              You don't need the Holy Spirit.
              Thus says the Lord:
              You have no case
              since you accepted those
              in the papacy's compilation of the canon
              who weren't capable of writing the word of God.

              Those tares lacked the anointing of the apostles
              I chose.



              To enforce the papacy's NT canon without foundational
              apostolic evidence is WITCHCRAFT
              (Rev 18:23).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                I am confused, Conqueror. I am new here so I don't know how you normally post. What does what I said have to do with you said?
                Don't be, it's rather simple. By the way, good post.

                JoeT
                Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                Comment


                • Conqueror, you are just a mocker and a scoffer and I want nothing to do with you.

                  Joe T, I don't know how you do it. I have read the last two pages of this thread and if the other 65 pages are like this... why bother? Its stony ground.

                  "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if therebe any praise, think on these things." Philippians 4:8


                  "Blessed Mary, Ever Virgin". <3 Now that's a truly beautiful name. Beautiful and true.




                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                    Joe T, I don't know how you do it. I have read the last two pages of this thread and if the other 65 pages are like this... why bother? Its stony ground.
                    The best answer I ever came up for "why bother" is "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened." The "how" is a grace (or curse, not sure which yet) of being a former Marine and like a Marine always faithful (semper fidelis), " Sigillum Militum isti ." Too smart to be here, too dumb to run. Or, is it the other way around? Or, it could simply be dumb and dumber.

                    I'm not sure how that helps any, but I can say you're in for a fight if you stay in this foxhole.

                    JoeT
                    Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                    "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mica View Post
                      only His tent of flesh had a beginning... without that 'tent', He has always existed
                      It's your BOOK, I don't recall "tent of flesh" in it. Certainly the flesh had a beginning, but the Good News is that it didn't have an end!

                      JoeT

                      Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                      "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                      Comment


                      • I'm on page 65... I see you already expressed some of my thoughts, JoeT, like,

                        "Is it not a distinct privilege to carry "ETERNAL LIFE HIMSELF"? Is it not a privilege to nurse the infant who is simultaneously your salvation and your God? What part of Mary's life, including the piercing of her heart, was not a privilege above the ordinary? Did you walk and talk with Jesus Christ in the real world, Mary had the distinct privilege. Would changing the swaddling cloths of Jesus Christ be a distinct privilege?"

                        But it is only by the grace of God I can read those words and my heart can swell with marvel at the graces God poured down on Mary. When I was Protestant - I am not saying every Protestant is like this - the way I thought of Mary was virtually that she was someone that God "used" to get Jesus here, and sort of discarded her or set her aside as inconsequential when He was done using her womb... honestly because that's sort of how much attention and thought Mary got from me. Unimportant. Didn't matter. Just another person, a person that God used, and then was done with her. Only meriting a mention at Christmastime. Not anything like "blessed among women"!

                        But only by the grace of God, I am now blessed to have more truthful understanding of God's beloved handiwork. God doesn't use people. God is love, and He is about relationships, and everything about God is eternal, and so if she was "once" the mother of Jesus, she is eternally, ever, always, the mother of Jesus. God could have brought Jesus here like Adam - whole, grown, and motherless, but that is not what He chose, and He had an eternal reason.

                        This happened (God graced me with genuine curiosity about Mary) when I had begun to be surprised by some truths of the Catholic Church, but I was sure that even such surprises would never lead me to becoming Catholic, not only because I had no desire under the sun to ever be, but because there were certain things I was sure it was not possible to reconcile with, and one of those was Catholics' notice and attention to Mary. But for some reason I was graced with the willingness to ask God to show me about Mary.

                        I can only speculate why I should have been favored to possess this curiosity and take it to God. I have speculated! Maybe it was because I once defended her, even though I did not "believe" in her (other than her being God's vessel that He needed to "use" for something so much more important than she herself!). I was in grad school and bore the wrath of my professor when I gave my personal critique of another's student's artwork, that she had been praising to the class, that incorporated torn-up and defaced holy cards of Mary. Now I did not believe any of that "Catholic nonsense" - calling a card or any other thing "holy", but the work offended me (and I knew my classmate who made it could handle my comment). So when the prof got done telling us how we ought to admire it, she asked for other feedback. I said, "Why make this piece of art? Why not just wear a sign that says, 'I have no respect for your religion"? To the looks of shock, I explained, "A sign would say it better! And these cards represent what is near and dear to people's beliefs. Not my beliefs. But they should be respected!" My prof was clearly dumbstruck with anger at me; she could barely speak. No one else had much to say. Then she basically attempted to "fail" me from the course (less than a B and it would not go towards my Masters). I did manage to win that too, though, after I challenged her (because there was no justification for it). But I never regretted the comment, even though it resulted in considerable trouble for me, because to me it was just standing up for what was right.

                        So I wondered, if God did not bless me, in the following way, because of this. Because, you know, you cannot out-give God!

                        So several years later, one winter night, I was about to be greatly blessed because of what I asked God. Well, I asked Mary, but I asked God first, of course. I said, "God, I am listening. I want to know what is true. I want to ask Mary this, but I do not want to address her, or ask this question, if You do not want me to, and I do not want to pray this prayer [the plan included a start with Hail Mary prayer] if it will offend you in any way, even the littlest bit! Please, I need You to stop me in my prayer, if you don't want me to pray it, or to address Mary. I only need the slightest nudge from You and I will stop." That meant, and I know He knew it, the slightest feeling of negativity, or thought, that I ought not pray this.

                        And I listened with all my heart, and I felt a beautiful open and wide peaceful "welcome" descend on me in the room. So, still on my knees, I turned a certain spot in high the room (it wasn't my plan, but I did) and began to pray, and it felt as if angels were singing with me as I prayed that prayer of scripture, and then I asked my impossible, pressing question, "Mary, are you my Mother?" And the yes was so strong, so lovely, so peaceful, so true, that I can only describe it as a full internal knowing, wrapped in the peace that only comes from God. I changed forever. I marveled! I knew I have a Mother in Heaven! (besides many brothers and sisters!!) And also was the strong knowing I will never doubt it. God-willing, that will be so.

                        I had read various Mary-things in my curiosity, in order to attempt to "get" it. I had read things like the things you are saying here, JohnT, which is the truth, but I was not able to hear it, until I later prayed this prayer, asking God to show me what is true. And I never expected, that from that day on I would never doubt again what was true about Mary. And what is true is what the Catholic Church actually truly teaches on the matter. That is always true, I soon discovered. [Which is why I eventually had to be Catholic - a decision that came clear to me a few months later (in May - Mary's month)].

                        So, for some reason God decided to bless me with the grace it took to even think of asking Him that question. And anyone can ask God that question. But a lot of people won't. Some of course won't because they already know everything, so of course they don't need to ask God. But others because they are afraid of offending God. That's a good reason, don't you think? God blesses them for their good intention (even though they are wrong!). He is all Love and Mercy.

                        I remember asking a pointed question, a few years before this, of some devout Catholic friends, a couple. Catholics were a curiosity to me at this point, but I knew they truly loved Our Lord, and knew Him, there was no doubt. We were discussing faith maters and I asked my honest question, "Don't you think Jesus is terribly sad when you Catholics notice so much His mother?". I was sure she would find some agreement with me. After all, she knew and loved Jesus, too. Well her face turned colors and she sputtered something in her indignation and had to leave the room to collect herself. For a while! Oh dear, I could see I offended her, (Protestants were a bit strange to her, too, at that point.) But I always remember that indignation.

                        And I feel it now here, having only read 3 pages of this thread. I guess what annoys me most is flippant scoffing. That is the worst, and so un-Christlike; I just do not want to engage. But also wearing and pointless is people who just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Because they want to win the argument? Not to learn anything to arrive at truths. That turns me off. I guess I will only find out if that's what you are dealing with if I read the next 64 pages... but I don't know if I will or not. I really do want to think on things true, right, good and beautiful. Like: Our Blessed Mother! Hail, Full of Grace!

                        Comment



                        • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                          Well I haven't read all 66 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if I repeat someone. Just to answer the OP, they already did not have a normal marriage. They had the most uniquely abnormal marriage of all time and eternity. Jesus is Lord, today, and always; because God changeth not. So that little baby worshiped by the shepherds and the wise men and whose praises were sung by thousands of adoring angels - He was not only man, but God Himself.

                          So when your Lord God is in your home and is your baby, entrusted to you by God, your existence is different from the existence of any other humans who have been on earth. The overwhelming sense of fulfillment and completion from having such a Heavenly life on earth - interacting with the living speaking God himself every single day, which they experienced for 30 years vs the only 3 that the Apostles experienced. And these years reflect intimacy with God. So intimate that we don't told much at all about these times Scripture.

                          But we can contemplate, and Christians have, and that is why the perpetual virginity of Mary goes back to the earliest centuries, and persists still.
                          please list your source for this personal insight.

                          and Mary was too busy as a young mother and wife... she didn't have a washing machine or dw or a micro... even at age 12 He was a fairly normal independent young man.
                          He wasn't preaching and healing people as a toddler.



                          In our times we think people cannot survive without sex, but there are many reason why people do live chastely, out of circumstantial necessity, or by choice, like those who choose a chaste single life or make a vow. Sometimes this is necessity within marriage, for example, if one is not well. And they they actually don't go nuts. Sometimes, instead, they are he sanest and loftiest among us.
                          so much for annulments for denying a spouse sex...

                          Mary was a normal young wife - including sex. that tells ya how faux the RCC is.


                          Anyway, with God, all things are possible. And God is not mocked. When we do things God's way, even though in our minds it does not seem right, doing it God's way is always best for us, because His way is always best. That includes living chastely in a society that says that such a choice will make you go insane.
                          then you should do things His way, instead of the false way of the RCC. The RCC way isn't His way.


                          But again, Joseph and Mary's situation was not like any marriage ever on earth. More akin to Adam and Eve when they walked with God, on earth. More heavenly. Joseph and May had the most unique vocation of all time. And they had in their life on earth, the deepest desire of all our hearts, to walk day-to-day in the living presence of the True God. Its so awesome when you think of it, that its no longer a wonder that they were not looking for alternative ways to fulfill each other off alone. Instead, I have to wonder how Mary could have even slept. Instead, she must have stayed awake and adored. And prayed, for the sorrows in her heart, and for the mission and purpose of her Son.

                          _______________
                          Re: "The Blessed Virgin": From Mary's song, as recorded for all time in Holy Scripture, moved by the Holy Spirit, with the Lord God in her womb: "...for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." -Luke 1:48
                          that's all hogwash taught by the RCC. how did the apostles survive in His presence? how could they even teach others with the glow surrounding Him?

                          "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                          The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

                            And I listened with all my heart, and I felt a beautiful open and wide peaceful "welcome" descend on me in the room. So, still on my knees, I turned a certain spot in high the room (it wasn't my plan, but I did) and began to pray, and it felt as if angels were singing with me as I prayed that prayer of scripture, and then I asked my impossible, pressing question, "Mary, are you my Mother?" And the yes was so strong, so lovely, so peaceful, so true, that I can only describe it as a full internal knowing, wrapped in the peace that only comes from God. I changed forever. I marveled! I knew I have a Mother in Heaven! (besides many brothers and sisters!!) And also was the strong knowing I will never doubt it. God-willing, that will be so.
                            The people of God are motivated by
                            what God revealed in the scriptures,

                            but you base your eternal life
                            on an experience with an angel of light.

                            So be it, as
                            few find the way.
                            Thus says the Lord:
                            You have no case
                            since you accepted those
                            in the papacy's compilation of the canon
                            who weren't capable of writing the word of God.

                            Those tares lacked the anointing of the apostles
                            I chose.



                            To enforce the papacy's NT canon without foundational
                            apostolic evidence is WITCHCRAFT
                            (Rev 18:23).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post


                              The Person Jesus Christ had a beginning in time starting in the womb of Mary where "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14]

                              Tell us about this Jesus who is born in a bubble [The Bubble God - TBG]to be protected from its mother, becoming a god after it was born, flesh possessed then nailed to a board?

                              JoeT
                              look for the verse that says He created all things. He had no body then.


                              "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                              The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
                                Its called rationalism and relativism; you hear what you want to hear so that God can be subjected to the will of man - this serves you.
                                that's very catholic... making God subject to the RCC.


                                "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                                The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                                Comment

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