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Mary's perpetual virginity

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  • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

    Elizabeth didn't say theos which is the word for God. So no, she wasn't referring to mary as mother of god.
    Honoring Mary as the Theotokos is also recognizing the divinity of Jesus as the incarnate Word of God:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. John 1:1-14

    As far a belief in the ever-virginity of Mary, here is an excerpt from an Orthodox website:

    Mary became the vessel for the Lord of Glory Himself, and bore in the flesh Him whom heaven and earth cannot contain. Would this not have been grounds to consider her life, including her body, as consecrated to God and God alone? Or it more plausible that she would shrug it all off and get on with keeping house in the usual fashion? Consider that the poetically parallel incident of the Lord's entry through the east gate of the Temple (in Ezekiel 43-44) prompts the call: "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut" (44:2).
    http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9174

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

      Her own children were unbelievers at the time (as the Bible makes clear).

      Next question??
      No. James, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, is called the brother of the Lord (see Acts 15 and Galatians 1:19).

      Why did Jesus tell John to take care of Mary instead of James if James were really the son of Mary?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

        No. James, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, is called the brother of the Lord (see Acts 15 and Galatians 1:19).

        Why did Jesus tell John to take care of Mary instead of James if James were really the son of Mary?
        So Apparently James (the brother of Jesus) BECAME a Christian - probably about the same time that Mary did AFTER the crucifixion. HE WASN'T just before the crucifixion (Jhn 7:5)

        Jesus obviously wanted to Mom in the care of somebody of KNOWN SPIRITUALITY. That's understandable.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

          So Apparently James (the brother of Jesus) BECAME a Christian - probably about the same time that Mary did AFTER the crucifixion. HE WASN'T just before the crucifixion (Jhn 7:5)

          Jesus obviously wanted to Mom in the care of somebody of KNOWN SPIRITUALITY. That's understandable.
          Luke makes it clear that Mary understood the importance of Jesus's birth from the beginning:

          My soul magnifies the Lord,
          and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
          for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
          For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
          for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
          and holy is his name.


          Luke 1:46-49

          According to Paul, the Christ appeared to James at the Resurrection:

          . . .he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 1 Corinthians 15:4-8

          Note that "the twelve" are mentioned earlier, so James is not James the apostle.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

            Honoring Mary as the Theotokos is also recognizing the divinity of Jesus as the incarnate Word of God:

            In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. John 1:1-14
            No dogma of mary is needed to recognize Jesus' deity. Its pure fabrication to suggest it is needed.

            As far a belief in the ever-virginity of Mary, here is an excerpt from an Orthodox website:

            Mary became the vessel for the Lord of Glory Himself, and bore in the flesh Him whom heaven and earth cannot contain. Would this not have been grounds to consider her life, including her body, as consecrated to God and God alone? Or it more plausible that she would shrug it all off and get on with keeping house in the usual fashion? Consider that the poetically parallel incident of the Lord's entry through the east gate of the Temple (in Ezekiel 43-44) prompts the call: "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut" (44:2).
            http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9174
            And? Really gonna use Ezk to suggest mary remained a virgin? Hermenutics and exegesis must be foreign words in catholicism, and apparently the greek orthodox.

            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

              Your question was, "Why do you suppose she is never referred to as such in the bible"? The point I made is that she IS referred to as the mother of God. Please refer back to the syllogism:

              Jesus is God
              Mary is mother of Jesus
              Mary is mother of God.

              In Scripture Mary is said to be mother of the Lord, plain and simple Mother of the Lord is the mother of God. Is Jesus not your Lord? If so then Mary is mother of God.

              JoeT
              Youre trying to connect non existent dots. Scripture never suggests what your trying to force into the text. Here is a reasonable way to follow a text;

              Originally posted by Atemi View Post


              My pleasure!

              These three stand together in regards to Mary's virginity:

              Luke 2:6 "While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son"

              If Luke knew of this "ever-virginity", why include this passage? Common sense here demands that she had other children. Luke confirms this later: "Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him..."

              Christ was Mary's firstborn SON. This "firstborn" is an adjective, not a noun. It describes the noun, "son."

              Matt 1:18 "His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but BEFORE they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit"

              BEFORE they came together? This is a euphemism for consumation. Common sense demands that if there was a "before," then there was an "after." If Matthew knew of the "ever-virginity," why would he include such deceptive language?

              Matt 1:25 "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son"

              You gotta take all the verses together to reach any conclusions.

              Take the "firstborn son" verses (Luke)...
              add them to the "until" verse (Matt 1:25) ...
              add them to the "before" verse (Matt 1:18)...
              and add all those to the huge amount of references to Jesus' brothers and sisters (everywhere)...

              and you must come to only one conclusion...unless your religion told you you must believe otherwise.

              Heck,

              Jesus' brothers and sisters are mentioned in every Gospel and Acts. The Last Supper is not even mentioned in every Gospel!

              There are more verses about Jesus' brothers and sisters than there are for the Real Presence, infant baptism, private confession, the Assumption, the papacy, the Mass, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception.

              Of course, not a single mention anywhere in Scripture that Mary never had sex her entire life. Actually, we will not find that taught until centuries after Christ.

              LOL.
              Catholics across the board dismissed this out of hand. Including this;

              Originally posted by Thomas View Post

              Everyone of your projections past the actual Scriptural testimony betrays not fact, but your opinion/theology. You are reading into Scripture, beyond the Scripture. NOT "sola scriptura."
              This is exactly what you are doing. Its your projection (thank you Thomas, good word) and betrays not fact, but your opinion/theology.

              In fact what Atemi quoted actually fits the context of those passages as well as the word which we have discussed earlier that refer to sexual relations in both Matt 1 and 1 Cor 7:5...

              Youre trying to shoehorn your dogma into these verses where it clearly is never mentioned.

              Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Conqueror

                Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east (Eze 44:1).

                EDIT Outrageous!

                A whole new angle.

                How interesting.
                The whole section of Ezekiel is describing a heavenly vision of the temple that was to be rebuilt:

                In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was conquered, on that very day, the hand of the Lord was upon me, 2 and brought me in the visions of God into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city opposite me. 3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring reed in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway. 4 And the man said to me, “Son of man, look with your eyes, and hear with your ears, and set your mind upon all that I shall show you, for you were brought here in order that I might show it to you; declare all that you see to the house of Israel.” Ezekiel 40:1-4
                Last edited by Mod8; 02-05-17, 11:12 PM. Reason: Quote box

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                  No dogma of mary is needed to recognize Jesus' deity. Its pure fabrication to suggest it is needed.

                  And? Really gonna use Ezk to suggest mary remained a virgin? Hermenutics and exegesis must be foreign words in catholicism, and apparently the greek orthodox.
                  Calling Mary the Theotokos fought early heresies. Some denied that Jesus was divine at all. Others denied that he was human. Adoptionism claimed that Jesus became Son of God at his baptism. The heresies denied the orthodox understanding of the Trinity and all denied that Jesus was both human and divine from the time he was in his mother's womb.

                  A theme in the liturgy of the Eastern Church is that Mary's womb became the temple of God. Here is one example from a hymn:

                  All of creation rejoices in thee: O full of grace: the assembly of angels, and the race of men, O sanctified temple and spiritual paradise, the glory of virgins, from whom God was incarnate and became a child, our God before the ages. He made thy body into a throne, and thy womb He made more spacious than the heavens! All of creation rejoices in thee: O full of grace. Glory to thee, glory to thee, glory to thee.

                  Ezekiel made it clear that the entrance to the Temple was closed once God passed through it; the same logic applies to Mary.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                    Calling Mary the Theotokos fought early heresies. Some denied that Jesus was divine at all. Others denied that he was human. Adoptionism claimed that Jesus became Son of God at his baptism. The heresies denied the orthodox understanding of the Trinity and all denied that Jesus was both human and divine from the time he was in his mother's womb.

                    A theme in the liturgy of the Eastern Church is that Mary's womb became the temple of God. Here is one example from a hymn:

                    All of creation rejoices in thee: O full of grace: the assembly of angels, and the race of men, O sanctified temple and spiritual paradise, the glory of virgins, from whom God was incarnate and became a child, our God before the ages. He made thy body into a throne, and thy womb He made more spacious than the heavens! All of creation rejoices in thee: O full of grace. Glory to thee, glory to thee, glory to thee.

                    Ezekiel made it clear that the entrance to the Temple was closed once God passed through it; the same logic applies to Mary.
                    And how many heresies has this unbiblical dogma of theotokos stamped out? No one in the world denies Jesus' deity? No one rejects the trinity? Is that what youre saying? No, in fact there are plenty of people, groups and religions that deny both. Its uneeded, unnecessary and the bible does a great job of promoting the deity of Jesus.

                    And mary had other children and its pure cherry picking and eisegesis to use Ezk to refer to marys private parts.

                    And, all believers are the temple of God, not one woman and certainly not just her womb.
                    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Conqueror


                      EDIT Outrageous!
                      but why is one so interested in that?

                      A sickening fetish with her flesh?
                      The eternal and infinite God took flesh in Mary's body. That is the point. That is also a great mystery.
                      Last edited by Mod8; 02-05-17, 11:19 PM. Reason: EDIT Outrageous!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                        And how many heresies has this unbiblical dogma of theotokos stamped out? No one in the world denies Jesus' deity? No one rejects the trinity? Is that what youre saying? No, in fact there are plenty of people, groups and religions that deny both. Its uneeded, unnecessary and the bible does a great job of promoting the deity of Jesus.

                        And mary had other children and its pure cherry picking and eisegesis to use Ezk to refer to marys private parts.

                        And, all believers are the temple of God, not one woman and certainly not just her womb.
                        The Eastern liturgy provides a complete theology that is sung by the congregation and provides a way of assuring unity in faith. The heresies that you mention did not come from people who sing hymns to the Theotokos.

                        There are plenty of people on this forum who claim to believe the bible but reject the Trinity. Peter recognized similar issues in his time:

                        So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                          The Eastern liturgy provides a complete theology that is sung by the congregation and provides a way of assuring unity in faith.
                          I don't get my theology from hymns or some liturgy. I get it from the bible. Maybe thats their first mistake huh?
                          The heresies that you mention did not come from people who sing hymns to the Theotokos.

                          There are plenty of people on this forum who claim to believe the bible but reject the Trinity. Peter recognized similar issues in his time:

                          So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
                          If there are still heresies, then you prove my point in that the dogma is worthless. Yes, the verses in Peter are significant....'which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction...' I'd heed those verses if i were you.

                          Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                            I don't get my theology from hymns or some liturgy. I get it from the bible. Maybe thats their first mistake huh?
                            If there are still heresies, then you prove my point in that the dogma is worthless. Yes, the verses in Peter are significant....'which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction...' I'd heed those verses if i were you.
                            Most of the liturgy is from the Bible. For example here is a Byzantine Hail Mary hymn:

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7WO_-kUxx4

                            The first part is from Luke 1: 28, the second is from Luke 1:42.
                            https://orthodoxwiki.org/Hail_Mary

                            The title, Theotokos (God Bearer), and the reference to Christ as savior are both consistent with this reference in Titus: . . . our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (2:13)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Conqueror




                              So the Orthodox break a kingdom principle
                              whereby Jesus is Lord and makes the rules


                              Move topic to Apologetics forum


                              No. The Holy Spirit guides the Church. That is clear in the Council of Jerusalem described in Acts 15.
                              Last edited by Mod8; 02-05-17, 11:24 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                                Luke makes it clear that Mary understood the importance of Jesus's birth from the beginning:
                                And Mark 3 reveals that neither she, NOR her kids HAD A CLUE what Jesus was all about - probably as a result of false teaching by the Pharisees, and the Sanhedron.


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