Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

Edited to add more information for posters:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Mary's perpetual virginity

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

    No. The Holy Spirit guides the Church. That is clear in the Council of Jerusalem described in Acts 15.
    what vs in Acts 15 speaks of the Holy Spirit guiding the RCC? please post it.

    the Holy Spirit doesn't guide anyone to lie.
    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

      Most of the liturgy is from the Bible. For example here is a Byzantine Hail Mary hymn:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7WO_-kUxx4

      The first part is from Luke 1: 28, the second is from Luke 1:42.
      https://orthodoxwiki.org/Hail_Mary

      The title, Theotokos (God Bearer), and the reference to Christ as savior are both consistent with this reference in Titus: . . . our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (2:13)
      The hail mary isn't biblical. Nowhere in Luke 1:28 is marys name even mentioned. Nowhere is she called full of grace and no one asks for her prayers. Cobbling together a couple verses then adding whats missing isn't what true believers do. We don't need to invent prayers to the dead.

      How is your title theotokos consistent with Titus 2? Mary has nothing to do with Jesus being God or our savior.
      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
        Its a separate issue, but we Catholics do believe that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven. I respect that you don't believe it, probably because it is an event not recorded in the Bible. But Martin Luther believed it. I believe he had it carved on his grave! He expected to meet his Queen in Heaven... We Catholics believe it is part of Sacred Tradition handed down from the Apostles, and from Jesus himself. Mary likely would have MUCH rather have died for humanity than see her son die, if it were only possible, but in her humility and wisdom she certainly knew that only God can do that. She knew her place, always. In icons, she is always pointing to Jesus.
        Fascinating.

        Would you provide some information as to Luther believing "Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven" and "carved on his grave"?

        Thanks.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

          Fascinating.

          Would you provide some information as to Luther believing "Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven" and "carved on his grave"?

          Thanks.
          Just google it. Its out there.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post

            Just google it. Its out there.
            Hi Eliza,

            You brought it up, so it's your responsibility to provide the information. If it's a link to a pro-Roman Catholic website and you feel as if it would violate CARM rules, feel free to send me an instant message.

            Thanks so much,

            James

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

              The hail mary isn't biblical. Nowhere in Luke 1:28 is marys name even mentioned. Nowhere is she called full of grace and no one asks for her prayers. Cobbling together a couple verses then adding whats missing isn't what true believers do. We don't need to invent prayers to the dead.

              How is your title theotokos consistent with Titus 2? Mary has nothing to do with Jesus being God or our savior.
              Mary's name appears at the end of verse 27:

              Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Luke 1:26-28

              The Greek word , κεχαριτωμένη, which is translated as "highly favored" literally means "favored with grace". (See http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-28.htm) Full of grace is an alternate translation into English.

              Jesus was fully God and fully human. Mary is the Theotokos (= God bearer) because she bore Jesus, who is called "God and savior" in Titus.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                Mary's name appears at the end of verse 27:

                Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” Luke 1:26-28
                You mentioned two verses from which the hail mary comes from;

                Luke 1:28
                28 And coming in, he said to her, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."NASB

                Luke 1:42
                42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed among women are you, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!NASB

                No mary,no full of grace, no praying for us sinners..yada yada.

                The Greek word , κεχαριτωμένη, which is translated as "highly favored" literally means "favored with grace". (See http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-28.htm) Full of grace is an alternate translation into English.
                NT:5487
                charitoo (khar-ee-to'-o); from NT:5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:

                KJV - make accepted, be highly favoured.
                (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

                NT:5487
                2. to pursue with grace, compass with favor; to honor with blessings: Eph 1:6; passive, Luke 1:28
                (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

                NT:5487
                charitoo NT:5487), akin to A, to endow with charis, primarily signified "to make graceful or gracious," and came to denote, in Hellenistic Greek, "to cause to find favor," Luke 1:28, "highly favored" (marg., "endued with grace"); in Eph 1:6, it is translated "made... accepted," KJV, "freely bestowed," RV (lit., "graced"); it does not here mean to endue with grace. Grace implies more than favor; grace is a free gift, favor may be deserved or gained.
                (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

                BDAG 3rd ed pp 1081
                Charitoo: to cause to be the recipient of a benefit, bestow favor on, favor highly, bless,
                ..one who has been favored (by God) Lk 1:28

                Your notion that an alternate translation of 'full of grace' is without merit. It doesn't occur and its not the definition of charitoo.

                Jesus was fully God and fully human. Mary is the Theotokos (= God bearer) because she bore Jesus, who is called "God and savior" in Titus.
                No, shes not. Not one whisper in the bible of anyone calling her such a name. Pretty bad miscue isn't it? Not a single apostle or Jesus Himself refers to her in those words?

                Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                  The hail mary isn't biblical. Nowhere in Luke 1:28 is marys name even mentioned. Nowhere is she called full of grace and no one asks for her prayers. Cobbling together a couple verses then adding whats missing isn't what true believers do. We don't need to invent prayers to the dead.

                  How is your title theotokos consistent with Titus 2? Mary has nothing to do with Jesus being God or our savior.
                  I’ve never heard such a small complaint before, “the virgin’s name was Mary” says Luke, [vs. 27] then he transitions to the Angel who speaks “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Luke made sure you knew who the Angel hailed, Mary. Likewise, we make sure our prayer is addressed to the Advocate Mary. You might recall, St. Irenaeus taught that Mary was first the advocate for Eve. She defends humanity's mother freeing her from the disobedience. Mary cooperated with God and the Holy Spirit (Paraclete) and in so doing becomes humanity’s mother in the order of grace as an advocate for her children who would harm themselves in their own sin.
                  For just as the former [Eve] was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. . .

                  The heretics being all unlearned and ignorant of God's arrangements, and not acquainted with that dispensation by which He took upon Him human nature (inscii ejus quć; est secundum hominem dispensationis), inasmuch as they blind themselves with regard to the truth, do in fact speak against their own salvation. [St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, 19, 1-2]
                  So we see my "novel" ideas of all graces coming through Mary represented by the Church is in actuality an obligation we take on when we accept the grace of faith in Jesus Christ. St. Irenaeus continues with a long list the errors and heresies that befall those who fail faith’s obligation to honor the Ever Virgin Immaculate Mary. Their god becomes the antithetical Way and Truth. Reading these passages years ago It struck me that it is here that we see honor and adoration of Mary is bound to Truth Himself. “Moreover, says St. Irenaeus writing of the 21st century nominalistic heretics, “they will have it that this [inner man] is that which is the understanding (sensum) in them, and which they decree as being the only thing to ascend to the perfect.” Here Luther adds the caveat, that perfection is mere covering, the dung still lies beneath. You might recall each of you outside of the Catholic Church claim it is only your inalienable right to subject one’s self to an authority, or rule that comes from the interior, i.e. relativism. Why be subject to an authority or rule when you can subjugate the will of God to your own will's relative truth? The rights of the servant seem to outweigh the master; the plantation house is stormed and the contents thrown onto revolt's fires of indignation and revolt against a God you never knew or understood.

                  Mary on the other hand is 'magnifies' the Lord. We know Christ through Mary who intercedes with her Son on our behalf.

                  When one speaks of Mary as sin, he misidentifies Christ thereby disputing one's own salvation.

                  JoeT
                  Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                  "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                    Mary on the other hand is 'magnifies' the Lord. We know Christ through Mary who intercedes with her Son on our behalf.

                    JoeT
                    Scripture nowhere says that Mary intercedes for us with Jesus.
                    “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ” – Colossians 2:8

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                      I’ve never heard such a small complaint before, “the virgin’s name was Mary” says Luke, [vs. 27] then he transitions to the Angel who speaks “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Luke made sure you knew who the Angel hailed, Mary. Likewise, we make sure our prayer is addressed to the Advocate Mary. You might recall, St. Irenaeus taught that Mary was first the advocate for Eve. She defends humanity's mother freeing her from the disobedience. Mary cooperated with God and the Holy Spirit (Paraclete) and in so doing becomes humanity’s mother in the order of grace as an advocate for her children who would harm themselves in their own sin.
                      For just as the former [Eve] was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. . .

                      The heretics being all unlearned and ignorant of God's arrangements, and not acquainted with that dispensation by which He took upon Him human nature (inscii ejus quć; est secundum hominem dispensationis), inasmuch as they blind themselves with regard to the truth, do in fact speak against their own salvation. [St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, 19, 1-2]
                      So we see my "novel" ideas of all graces coming through Mary represented by the Church is in actuality an obligation we take on when we accept the grace of faith in Jesus Christ. St. Irenaeus continues with a long list the errors and heresies that befall those who fail faith’s obligation to honor the Ever Virgin Immaculate Mary. Their god becomes the antithetical Way and Truth. Reading these passages years ago It struck me that it is here that we see honor and adoration of Mary is bound to Truth Himself. “Moreover, says St. Irenaeus writing of the 21st century nominalistic heretics, “they will have it that this [inner man] is that which is the understanding (sensum) in them, and which they decree as being the only thing to ascend to the perfect.” Here Luther adds the caveat, that perfection is mere covering, the dung still lies beneath. You might recall each of you outside of the Catholic Church claim it is only your inalienable right to subject one’s self to an authority, or rule that comes from the interior, i.e. relativism. Why be subject to an authority or rule when you can subjugate the will of God to your own will's relative truth? The rights of the servant seem to outweigh the master; the plantation house is stormed and the contents thrown onto revolt's fires of indignation and revolt against a God you never knew or understood.

                      Mary on the other hand is 'magnifies' the Lord. We know Christ through Mary who intercedes with her Son on our behalf.

                      When one speaks of Mary as sin, he misidentifies Christ thereby disputing one's own salvation.

                      JoeT
                      The bible never calls mary full of grace.
                      The bible never uses the word advocate for mary
                      Mary isn't humanity's mother
                      And Irenaeus isn't infallible. I didn't look up the quote because i really don't care but he isn't infallible and when he teaches against scripture we don't listen to him.

                      Any more fiction you'd like to tell us about?

                      More mary worship on your part. Sadly.
                      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by nan View Post

                        Scripture nowhere says that Mary intercedes for us with Jesus.
                        Instead there is and example of her advocating for us. [John 2:1-5]. And "do" whatever He asks of you.

                        JoeT
                        Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                        "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                          The bible never calls mary full of grace.
                          The bible never uses the word advocate for mary
                          Mary isn't humanity's mother
                          And Irenaeus isn't infallible. I didn't look up the quote because i really don't care but he isn't infallible and when he teaches against scripture we don't listen to him.

                          Any more fiction you'd like to tell us about?

                          More mary worship on your part. Sadly.
                          There sure are a lot of words that don't show up in the BOOK of His WORDS. Is there anything in you BOOK?

                          Mary is said to be "full of grace" Luke 1:28. If Mary is not the one being called "full of grace", who is? I can hardly wait for this one.

                          But, Mary advocates, John 2:1-5

                          Irenaeus is a Saint, perfected, which means he is more infallible than you.

                          JoeT
                          Sigillum Militum Χρisti
                          "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                            Instead there is and example of her advocating for us. [John 2:1-5]. And "do" whatever He asks of you.

                            JoeT
                            LOL.... mary talking to a servant is not advocating. That is her talking to a servant!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                              There sure are a lot of words that don't show up in the BOOK of His WORDS. Is there anything in you BOOK?
                              Youre the one throwing around terms Joe. And these terms are NEVER used of mary. I'm just shining the spotlight on your attempt to elevate a creature over the creator.

                              Mary is said to be "full of grace" Luke 1:28. If Mary is not the one being called "full of grace", who is? I can hardly wait for this one.
                              I've cited several lexicons just tonight on that very word. None define charitoo as full of grace. So, no she isn't full of grace because the text never says she is.

                              But, Mary advocates, John 2:1-5
                              Show us the word paraclete in Jn 2. Then you might have a case.

                              Irenaeus is a Saint, perfected, which means he is more infallible than you.

                              JoeT
                              Hes a saint in your church. If hes a true believer then he is a saint the same as all believers. But with some of the flaky things he says, who knows? Well, we will find out when we get there won't we?
                              Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                                No, shes not. Not one whisper in the bible of anyone calling her such a name. Pretty bad miscue isn't it? Not a single apostle or Jesus Himself refers to her in those words?
                                When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She exclaimed with a loud voice, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child in your womb! And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come and visit me? For the instant the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that what was spoken to her by the Lord would be fulfilled.” Luke 1:41-45

                                The "mother of my Lord" is the equivalent of Mother of God or Theotokos since God is the Lord.

                                The only way you can deny the truth that Mary is the Theotokos is if you reject the divinity of Jesus. There is no contradiction with scripture; even Luther recognized that:

                                God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...(On the Councils and the Church, 1539). http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...iew.cfm?id=788




                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X