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Mary's perpetual virginity

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  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

    When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She exclaimed with a loud voice, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child in your womb! And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come and visit me? For the instant the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that what was spoken to her by the Lord would be fulfilled.” Luke 1:41-45

    The "mother of my Lord" is the equivalent of Mother of God or Theotokos since God is the Lord.

    The only way you can deny the truth that Mary is the Theotokos is if you reject the divinity of Jesus. There is no contradiction with scripture; even Luther recognized that:

    God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...(On the Councils and the Church, 1539). http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...iew.cfm?id=788



    Well words mean things don't they? Liz said Lord, not God. Two different words huh? If God had wanted Liz to say mother of God He would have moved the writer to say as much. But He never does. And i can, and do reject mary as mother of God and yet i can embrace Jesus as deity and savior. Not hard at all.
    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

      Well words mean things don't they? Liz said Lord, not God. Two different words huh? If God had wanted Liz to say mother of God He would have moved the writer to say as much. But He never does. And i can, and do reject mary as mother of God and yet i can embrace Jesus as deity and savior. Not hard at all.
      Apparently, words mean very little in the BOOK?

      JoeT
      Sigillum Militum Χρisti
      "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

        Apparently, words mean very little in the BOOK?JoeT
        obviously, the words in it mean very little to those who put their belief in someone/thing else - like the RCC.

        and to those who are disrespectful of His word.

        "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

        The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

          When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She exclaimed with a loud voice, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child in your womb! And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come and visit me? For the instant the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that what was spoken to her by the Lord would be fulfilled.” Luke 1:41-45

          The "mother of my Lord" is the equivalent of Mother of God or Theotokos since God is the Lord.

          The only way you can deny the truth that Mary is the Theotokos is if you reject the divinity of Jesus. There is no contradiction with scripture; even Luther recognized that:

          God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...(On the Councils and the Church, 1539). http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...iew.cfm?id=788
          are you confused when His word speaks of Lord vs LORD?

          "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

          The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

          Comment


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            "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

            .................................................. .......


            ................................Martin Luther, sermon, September 1st, 1522
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            Comment


            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

              Instead there is and example of her advocating for us. [John 2:1-5]. And "do" whatever He asks of you.

              JoeT
              According to scripture, Mary saw they were out of wine and asked Jesus to help. No one asked for her intercession. You're stretching the bounds of credibility when you translate this to mean she intercedes for us with Jesus.
              We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                Apparently, words mean very little in the BOOK?

                JoeT
                Again, you and your fellow catholic buddies are the ones haphazardly throwing around terms for no other reason than to fulfill an agenda. I'm simply correcting you. If you don't like it then stop forcing your beliefs into the text. The bible uses words and those words have meaning. I'm arguing for its integrity and reliability. Youre trying to tear it down and erect your own version of what YOU want it to say. Do you think this escapes Gods notice?
                Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                  .
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                  "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

                  .................................................. .......


                  ................................Martin Luther, sermon, September 1st, 1522
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                  Please note the year you cited this statement of Luther. His views changed over the course of his life.He changed many of his marian views shortly after this. Can you cite something later in his life like what you quoted here?
                  Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                    .
                    .

                    "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

                    .................................................. .......


                    ................................Martin Luther, sermon, September 1st, 1522
                    .
                    Hi again Eliza,

                    This sermon was not from "September 1st." The "September 1st" date is incorrectly cited on numerous Roman Catholic webpages. The sermon is from September 8.

                    Luther's point in context is that whatever respect Mary was due to her, the church of his day had collectively had gone far beyond it."The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart" is not a positive statement, but a negative statement. This sentence placed back in its context is in regard to excessive Marian devotion, a devotion so rooted in the human heart that "no one wants to hear any opposition to this celebration" of the feast of Mary's birth.

                    Here is an English translation of the paragraph from which your quote come from:

                    "Today's feast of the blessed Virgin celebrates her birth. We also read today in the beginning of Matthew the accounting of part of the family tree including the great ancestors of Jesus Christ. But you know, my friends in Christ, that the honor given to the mother of God has been rooted so deeply into the hearts of men that no one wants to hear any opposition to this celebration. There is rather a desire to further elevate it and make it even greater. We also grant that she should be honored, since we, according to Saint Paul's words [Romans 12] are indebted to show honor one to another for the sake of the One who dwells in us, Jesus Christ. Therefore we have an obligation to honor Mary. But be careful to give her honor that is fitting. Unfortunately, I worry that we give her all too high an honor for she is accorded much more esteem than she should be given or than she accounted to herself.

                    Regards,

                    James

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

                      Hi again Eliza,

                      This sermon was not from "September 1st." The "September 1st" date is incorrectly cited on numerous Roman Catholic webpages. The sermon is from September 8.

                      Luther's point in context is that whatever respect Mary was due to her, the church of his day had collectively had gone far beyond it."The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart" is not a positive statement, but a negative statement. This sentence placed back in its context is in regard to excessive Marian devotion, a devotion so rooted in the human heart that "no one wants to hear any opposition to this celebration" of the feast of Mary's birth.

                      Here is an English translation of the paragraph from which your quote come from:

                      "Today's feast of the blessed Virgin celebrates her birth. We also read today in the beginning of Matthew the accounting of part of the family tree including the great ancestors of Jesus Christ. But you know, my friends in Christ, that the honor given to the mother of God has been rooted so deeply into the hearts of men that no one wants to hear any opposition to this celebration. There is rather a desire to further elevate it and make it even greater. We also grant that she should be honored, since we, according to Saint Paul's words [Romans 12] are indebted to show honor one to another for the sake of the One who dwells in us, Jesus Christ. Therefore we have an obligation to honor Mary. But be careful to give her honor that is fitting. Unfortunately, I worry that we give her all too high an honor for she is accorded much more esteem than she should be given or than she accounted to herself.

                      Regards,

                      James

                      edit/divisive

                      "Today's feast of the blessed Virgin celebrates her birth."

                      "Therefore we have an obligation to honor Mary."


                      Further down in the sermon...


                      "So see that you honor the mother of God because she is a special child of God, gifted and graced above all women. You must also call her filled with grace, mother of God and give her the honor which God has established."


                      Original Source ---> http://archive.org/stream/pt3werkekr...e/313/mode/1up (Because I know you are a polygot.)

                      English Source ---> https://books.google.com/books?id=Xf...%20god&f=false


                      Last edited by CARM Admin; 02-07-17, 12:46 PM. Reason: edit divisive/personal comments
                      "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                      "First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world." - St. Paul to the first Roman Catholics

                      Comment


                      • Thank you for the clarification, James Swan. Context is important! The date - may be a small matter, but, both the 1st and the 8th in 1522 were Mondays... I wonder if Martin Luther was a Daily Mass priest?? Ah - maybe it was a special Mass for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

                        Thank you also, Walpole, for the important clarifications from the sermon, too. Important points! They remind me of how the single statement I posted from Luther on Mary is true: "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." hey Its how I feel. It reminds me of how I felt when I realized that Mary was my mother - that I was experiencing something that I had always missed.

                        That's how I feel about it. I have nothing but respect for those who don't find any agreement with me and staying true to their conscience on the matter.

                        Now I will write very little for awhile, my mother who we have long cared for, has taken a sudden turn for the worse and we are suddenly facing last days or weeks. If whoever reads this is sends up a quick prayer for comfort and for a peaceful death, I would be most grateful.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Eliza10 View Post
                          Thank you for the clarification, James Swan. Context is important! The date - may be a small matter, but, both the 1st and the 8th in 1522 were Mondays... I wonder if Martin Luther was a Daily Mass priest?? Ah - maybe it was a special Mass for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

                          Thank you also, Walpole, for the important clarifications from the sermon, too. Important points! They remind me of how the single statement I posted from Luther on Mary is true: "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." hey Its how I feel. It reminds me of how I felt when I realized that Mary was my mother - that I was experiencing something that I had always missed.

                          That's how I feel about it. I have nothing but respect for those who don't find any agreement with me and staying true to their conscience on the matter.

                          Now I will write very little for awhile, my mother who we have long cared for, has taken a sudden turn for the worse and we are suddenly facing last days or weeks. If whoever reads this is sends up a quick prayer for comfort and for a peaceful death, I would be most grateful.


                          edit My point was the progeny of Luther are forced to white-wash his teaching. They try to sanitize it to make sure it doesn't sound so Catholic. Click on the link to the sermon and you can read it in its entirety. Luther instructs his followers to honor the Mother of God, but to simply avoid getting "carried away" with veneration.

                          Can you imaging today's Protestants honoring the Mother of God and rightly calling her full of grace??? There are several threads here by Protestants arguing she is neither full of grace nor the Mother of God!



                          My prayers are with you and your mother. As Martin Luther prayed for his young friend John Frederick after instructing him to model his life on Mary's Magnificat...

                          May the tender Mother of God herself procure for you the spirit of wisdom, profitably and thoroughly, so that you may draw wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing Mary's Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen.
                          Last edited by CARM Admin; 02-09-17, 06:34 PM. Reason: edited/must use full user name or quote link/do not use nick names or partial names on forum/do not discuss poster
                          "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                          "First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world." - St. Paul to the first Roman Catholics

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Walpole View Post


                            Edit complained about my post so it was edited. My point was the progeny of Luther are forced to white-wash his teaching. They try to sanitize it to make sure it doesn't sound so Catholic. Click on the link to the sermon and you can read it in its entirety. Luther instructs his followers to honor the Mother of God, but to simply avoid getting "carried away" with veneration.
                            Edit included those parts of the sermon, or were you in too much of a hurry to post you missed it?
                            Can you imaging today's Protestants honoring the Mother of God and rightly calling her full of grace??? There are several threads here by Protestants arguing she is neither full of grace nor the Mother of God!
                            My prayers are with you and your mother.
                            And rightly so, because she is neither. Find those verses and we can talk about them. But in the years i've been here no catholic has produced such scripture. Lots of 'the church teaches' but nothing of substance from the bible. You know, what God actually says.
                            Last edited by CARM Admin; 02-09-17, 05:54 PM. Reason: Do not comment on the names of posters/you may quote posters do not discuss by name
                            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                              edit included those parts of the sermon, or were you in too much of a hurry to post you missed it?
                              And rightly so, because she is neither. Find those verses and we can talk about them. But in the years i've been here no catholic has produced such scripture. Lots of 'the church teaches' but nothing of substance from the bible. You know, what God actually says.

                              ...And right on cue you swoop in to make my point!


                              Thank you!

                              Last edited by CARM Admin; 02-09-17, 05:55 PM.
                              "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                              "First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world." - St. Paul to the first Roman Catholics

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Walpole View Post


                                ...And right on cue you swoop in to make my point!


                                Thank you!

                                You're welcome.
                                Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

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