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The More Roman Catholics Try to Defend Their Religion...

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  • Originally posted by baptizedinChrist View Post
    I answered this already. And the sedevacanist would say there's no proven leadership in the Catholic Church at the present time. All the popes after the Second Vatican Council are false teachers contradicting previous Church teachings.
    You've answered nothing of my original question. Where is this unity that you speak of? For example, try bringing together icon venerators and iconoclasts and see the wonderful unity that will result from that. It will be a unity of hatred and icon smashing. The examples you cited actually makes your argument of unity even worse. It is like you're throwing gasoline into your unity of hatred.
    Last edited by UnionofGrace&Nature; 10-12-17, 10:33 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
      You've answered nothing of my original question. Where is this unity that you speak of? For example, try bringing together icon venerators and iconoclasts and see the wonderful unity that will result from that. It will be a unity of hatred and icon smashing. The examples you cited actually makes your argument of unity even worse. It is like you're throwing gasoline into your unity of hatred.
      Try getting a Novus Ordo Catholic and a sedevacanist together and see what kind of unity a so-called infallible Mother Church brings together.
      In defense of the faith,
      baptizedinChrist



      Comment


      • Originally posted by baptizedinChrist View Post
        Try getting a Novus Ordo Catholic and a sedevacanist together and see what kind of unity a so-called infallible Mother Church brings together.
        So where is this unity that you speak of? All I see is a unity of hatred. That's how you're united with other Christians - through hatred?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
          So where is this unity that you speak of? All I see is a unity of hatred. That's how you're united with other Christians - through hatred?
          So where is this unity that you speak of? All I see is a unity of complete and utter confusion. You have Jesuit priests pining for LGBT acceptance, a Pope who places pro-abortion rights advocates in positions of authority, devout Catholics who don't know whether to stand or kneel in communion, and priests who don't know how to interpret papal documents (ala amoris laetitia)! That's how you're united with other Catholics - through outright and utter confusion and rampant contradictions?
          In defense of the faith,
          baptizedinChrist



          Comment


          • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

            you just cannot accept ecclesial authority.

            you are your own pope, your own church, your own authority.....correct?
            And you are in Rome not because of your decision, but because of a gun the pope has to your head...

            If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. C.H. Spurgeon

            Comment


            • Originally posted by baptizedinChrist View Post
              So where is this unity that you speak of? All I see is a unity of complete and utter confusion. You have Jesuit priests pining for LGBT acceptance, a Pope who places pro-abortion rights advocates in positions of authority, devout Catholics who don't know whether to stand or kneel in communion, and priests who don't know how to interpret papal documents (ala amoris laetitia)! That's how you're united with other Catholics - through outright and utter confusion and rampant contradictions?
              You're the one who said, "I'm united with every other Christian in the world ... no matter their denomination ... " You said it, you own it, now prove it. All I see is back-tracking, deflections, and projections on your part.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                You're the one who said, "I'm united with every other Christian in the world ... no matter their denomination ... " You said it, you own it, now prove it. All I see is back-tracking, deflections, and projections on your part.
                How's that foot taste?
                In defense of the faith,
                baptizedinChrist



                Comment


                • Originally posted by baptizedinChrist View Post
                  How's that foot taste?
                  Ad Homenum. That's what always happens when a debater (like you) has lost his case. I accept your protestant white flag.

                  Comment


                  • Open Heart said:
                    Perhaps you don't know your history of the NT.
                    The books of the NT were written pretty early, but they were NOT considered scripture.
                    Not considered scripture early on? During the lifetime of the Disciple/Apostles?
                    We have all read about Peter stating that Paul's writings were equal to scripture in II Peter 3:15,16. Many believe this to infer that it was the Old Testament, and that is fine, as it then means that Paul's writings are confirming prophecy. Paul also confirms that his epistle of Romans (16:22) also confirms the scripture of the prophets. (16:26).
                    Peter also affirms that the Disciple/Apostles ("we") have a confirmed word of prophecy in their writings. (IIPet. 1:19). He compares their writings as scripture, not of their own interpretation, and that at no time was it by the will of man, but holy men were moved by the HS to write. (1:19-21). But before this passage... Peter gives us a little background as he states that God gave them (Disciple/Apostles) the knowledge of God and of Jesus. (1:2). This knowledge, which he calls "all things, pertaining to life and godliness"... promises, that by these they might be partakers of the divine nature. (1:3,4). We now skip to verses 12-16, which Peter wants the hearers to call to "remembrance" (3 times) what he had previously told them... the "present truth". He goes on to say that he knows he will eventually die(1:15) and was endeavoring to make sure they "always" had the truth. He reassures that their writings are not fables, but truth as "eyewitnesses" of Jesus majesty. (1:16). But, here's the cool part... In chapter3:1,2, Peter calls his epistle- the way to stir up their remembrance, and that it confirms the words spoken before by the holy prophets. Confirmed prophecy! John also confirms prophecy when he writes Revelation. (1:2,3). So we have the testimony of Paul, Peter, and John that their writings (and the others as well..."we"). In a nutshell, they were canonizing their writings as equal to the Old Testament, confirming it!
                    Then there is the special meeting of Paul, Timothy, Luke, and Mark which took place in Rome. (IITim. 4:9-13). With the exception of Matthew and John, these four writers are almost solely responsible for the writing of the New Testament. They were meeting together, and "the books" were to brought there as well..."especially the parchments".
                    The point?
                    Paul, Peter, and John (and looks like Luke and Mark, who also wrote) are confirming that their writings are an extension, and or equal to the Old Testament! They are confirming their writings... i.e., canonizing!! (Of course, all their writing were canonized the minute the wrote them, as per the instruction and guidance of Jesus and the HS., but they were now making sure of their validity.


                    Even the gospels, which were held in very high esteem, were not considered scripture. All these various epistles were passed from church to church, all on par with each other. That mean that Clements epistle to the Corinthians was on par with Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and the book of Acts was on par with the Didache. No one even felt a need for a New Testament.
                    The Apostle/Disciples obviously felt a need, as well as the HS, to put their teachings on paper, to help the masses to remember.

                    As the years went on, a vague idea began to form that there should be certain books to represent the Christian faith, but no one could agree on which ones.
                    This was obviously past the first century, and long forgotten that the Apostle/Disciples had already confirmed their writings as acceptable.

                    Several hundred years passed, and there was clearly a desire for a new Christian canon. There was no question about some books belonging. Other books were held in question. 1 and 2 Clement almost made it into the Bible. Right up until the last moment, it was debated whether Revelation should be a part of the canon.
                    Enough time had passed since the death of the last Disciple/Apostle, and the twisting of scripture had free reign.
                    A "new" Christian canon? Means there was something before then.
                    The long and short of it is this: various Christians throughout the Early Church had different proposals for what they wanted the canon to be, but none had the authority to establish a canon. Only the bishops meeting in an ecumenical council had the authority to put together the gospels and epistles that we today know as the NT and declare it the official Christian canon. To do so, they were guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit.
                    The real long and short of it is... is that the RCC only confirmed (what they called canonizing) what was already excepted and being used throughout Christendom.
                    Furthermore, no one can make the claim that without them, the scriptures would not exist, because no one can stop what has proceeded from the mouth of God, it will go forward regardless and accomplish what He wants, and will not come back void. (Is. 55:11). If God chose to use someone, or something to accomplish His will, it will be done, regardless of their opinion. God can use a drunk on the street to save a child who is in danger of being killed by a speeding car. If it wasn't the RCC, He would have used another means to accomplish His word. You can count on that!

                    So basically, unless you accept the authority of the Church, you don't have the authority of the NT.
                    Word for word from the playbook of the RCC. Blessings!









                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                      Ad Homenum. That's what always happens when a debater (like you) has lost his case. I accept your protestant white flag.
                      What's an Ad Homenum? I know what an ad hominem is, but I guess an Ad Homenum is something only Novus Ordo Roman Catholics know about.
                      In defense of the faith,
                      baptizedinChrist



                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                        i do not claim it and the reason i have a living infallible authority.

                        how about you?
                        You have a Bible??? Awesome!


                        Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post
                        let's see.......what is the name of your church and who started it?
                        Jesus started it,
                        As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, For the wages of sin is death, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 3:10; 3:23; 6:23a; 5:12; 5:8; 10:13 NIV)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                          I have read the NT cover to cover many times. What is clear to me is that you have no clue of the history of how the NT came into being. See my other post. Please read all of it.
                          Well if that’s what you claim, then you’d KNOW that some N.T. Composers (through the Holy Spirit) named other N.T. Writings as Scripture.

                          I kno the history very well, the problem is that you put a Roman Catholic spin to that history. Not going to buy it!
                          As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, For the wages of sin is death, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 3:10; 3:23; 6:23a; 5:12; 5:8; 10:13 NIV)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                            Perhaps you don't know your history of the NT.

                            The books of the NT were written pretty early, but they were NOT considered scripture. Even the gospels, which were held in very high esteem, were not considered scripture. All these various epistles were passed from church to church, all on par with each other. That mean that Clements epistle to the Corinthians was on par with Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and the book of Acts was on par with the Didache. No one even felt a need for a New Testament.

                            As the years went on, a vague idea began to form that there should be certain books to represent the Christian faith, but no one could agree on which ones.

                            Several hundred years passed, and there was clearly a desire for a new Christian canon. There was no question about some books belonging. Other books were held in question. 1 and 2 Clement almost made it into the Bible. Right up until the last moment, it was debated whether Revelation should be a part of the canon.

                            The long and short of it is this: various Christians throughout the Early Church had different proposals for what they wanted the canon to be, but none had the authority to establish a canon. Only the bishops meeting in an ecumenical council had the authority to put together the gospels and epistles that we today know as the NT and declare it the official Christian canon. To do so, they were guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit.

                            So basically, unless you accept the authority of the Church, you don't have the authority of the NT.
                            Is there a “Rolls Eyes” emoji?
                            As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, For the wages of sin is death, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 3:10; 3:23; 6:23a; 5:12; 5:8; 10:13 NIV)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ric View Post

                              Is there a “Rolls Eyes” emoji?
                              Yes.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                                You've answered nothing of my original question. Where is this unity that you speak of? For example, try bringing together icon venerators and iconoclastsand see the wonderful unity that will result from that. It will be a unity of hatred and icon smashing. The examples you cited actually makes your argument of unity even worse. It is like you're throwing gasoline into your unity of hatred.
                                the unity is between those who are His... those who are born again.

                                those 2 are not alike, so no unity. those who are born again, are not icon venerators (worshipers).



                                "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                                The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

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