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Hi, what is the best way to answer this claim of fraud?**

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

    No he doesn't. He says let each be convinced in their own mind. He doesn't say who is correct.
    In which case, it's OBVIOUSLY of no importance. Why WOULDN'T Paul say, if it mattered at all????

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Atemi View Post

      So many frauds were piously adopted in the early church. This is why Christ followers should never use them as any sort of standard or authority.

      Early church docs are not legit merely because of when they were written or how popular they were.

      ...
      How do you prove using historical sources what is a fraud?

      Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] your God [Elohim] is one LORD [Jehovah].

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      • #18
        Note: the priests or scholars who copied the scriptures, where likely the ones who copied historical documents too.
        Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] your God [Elohim] is one LORD [Jehovah].

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
          How do you prove using historical sources what is a fraud?
          Texts claimed to have been written long before they showed up on the scene.
          Authors who claim they are writers that have been dead for a long time.
          Texts that include information that would not be known in the supposed era or place it was supposedly written.
          Etc...etc...

          The fact is history is loaded with frauds. This is not up for debate.

          And even if you find a text which is not a fraud, it would only be an opinion or a testimony that has only some historical value but zero doctrinal value.

          ...

          "Over the past 25 years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: (Justification By Faith by Peter Kreeft. Catholic Apologist)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
            Note: the priests or scholars who copied the scriptures, where likely the ones who copied historical documents too.
            This is speculation and irrelevant.

            Does the job title of "priest" or "scholar" mean you are informed....trustworthy...or correct?

            ...
            "Over the past 25 years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: (Justification By Faith by Peter Kreeft. Catholic Apologist)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

              In which case, it's OBVIOUSLY of no importance. Why WOULDN'T Paul say, if it mattered at all????
              He thinks something else is MORE important. But he may believe there is a correct answer. I for example, believe it is wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols. I have friends who are religious Taoists, and they make offerings of fruit to their various idols. I do not eat their fruit. But I don't think a Christian who believes otherwise will be going to hell. I simply think he is mistaken. God will look on his heart, and will see that he is only confused and not in rebellion.

              Elsewhere in the NT, it is crystal clear that we are not to engage in idolatry, part of which is eating the foods sacrificed to idols. The Council of Jerusalem quite specifically forbids food offered to idols. Where Paul may be vague, James is crystal clear.
              Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
              “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
              "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                Elsewhere in the NT, it is crystal clear that we are not to engage in idolatry
                Thus not worship inanimate objects, Catholics.

                But the clarity of the NT is not able to stop you.

                ...
                "Over the past 25 years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: (Justification By Faith by Peter Kreeft. Catholic Apologist)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                  He thinks something else is MORE important. But he may believe there is a correct answer. I for example, believe it is wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols. I have friends who are religious Taoists, and they make offerings of fruit to their various idols. I do not eat their fruit. But I don't think a Christian who believes otherwise will be going to hell. I simply think he is mistaken. God will look on his heart, and will see that he is only confused and not in rebellion.

                  Elsewhere in the NT, it is crystal clear that we are not to engage in idolatry, part of which is eating the foods sacrificed to idols. The Council of Jerusalem quite specifically forbids food offered to idols. Where Paul may be vague, James is crystal clear.
                  Paul is clear, however. He says Eat what's put in front of you, and don't ask questions (since it doesn't matter). HOWEVER, if somebody clues you in about it being Meat offered to idols, THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS who ignorantly THINK it's a bad thing, then abstain to avoid injuring THEIR conscience with your freedom. Rom 14.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post

                    How do you prove using historical sources what is a fraud?
                    One easy way is to be up to date with the Bible. Anything that contradicts the Word cannot be true
                    As easy as that.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post

                      Daniel Marsh said:
                      100 AD BARNABAS "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD 15:6-8). .



                      The claims that were made:

                      The "Epistle of Barnabas" is a great example of a forgery not at all written by the companion of Paul -- which was Barnabas.

                      Johann August Wilhelm Neander (January 17, 1789 – July 14, 1850), was a German theologian and church historian.

                      Neander speaks as follows:


                      "The writings of the so-called Apostolic Fathers are, alas! come down to us, for the most part, in a very uncertain condition; partly, because in early times writings were counterfeited, under the name of these venerable men of the church, in order to propagate certain opinions or principles; partly, because those writings which they had really published were adulterated, and especially so to serve a Judao-hierarchical party, which would fain crush the free evangelical spirit. We should here, in the first place, have to name Bamabas, the well known fellow traveler of St. Paul, if a letter, which was first known in the second century, in the Alexandrian church, under his name, and which bore the inscription of a Catholic epistle, was really his composition. But it is impossible that we should acknowledge this epistle to belong to that Barnabis who was worthy to be the companion of the apostolic labors of St. Paul, and had received his name from the power of his animated discourses in the churches. We find, also, nothing to induce us to believe the author of the Epistle was desirous of being considered Barnabas. But since its spirit and its mode of conception corresponded to the Alexandrian taste, it may have happened, that as the author's name was unknown, and persons were desirous of giving it authority, a report was spread abroad in Alexandria, that Barnabas was the author." (History of the Christian Church of the First Three Centuries, pp. 407, 408, Rose's Trans.)



                      Mosheim says:



                      "The Epistle of Barnabas was the production of some Jew, who most probably lived in this [the second] century, and whose mean abilities and superstitious attachment to Jewish fables, show, notwithstanding the uprightness of his intentions, that he must have been a very different person from the true Barnabas who was St. Paul's companion." (Church History, Vol. 1, p. 113, Maclaine's Trans.)


                      Thank You,
                      I never thought this Barnabas was written Paul's companion. Catholic scholars already know that it was a different person named Barnabas, or an anonymous author writing under the name of Barnabas.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                        And what "value" would THAT be??
                        It's an valuable historical record from the apostolic age. But of course that's only valuable if you care about history.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                          Paul is clear, however. He says Eat what's put in front of you, and don't ask questions (since it doesn't matter). HOWEVER, if somebody clues you in about it being Meat offered to idols, THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS who ignorantly THINK it's a bad thing, then abstain to avoid injuring THEIR conscience with your freedom. Rom 14.
                          I'm sorry, but that's just not my take. And if it were true about Paul, then you would have to say that Paul contradicted James and the Council of Jerusalem. Do you want to say that the New Testament contradicts itself?
                          Open Heart, Hebrew Catholic
                          “God never abandoned his covenant with Israel" Pope Francis
                          "It is unthinkable that [the Church] would claim to replace Israel. She is not another Israel." Cardinal Lustiger

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                            Paul is clear, however. He says Eat what's put in front of you, and don't ask questions (since it doesn't matter). HOWEVER, if somebody clues you in about it being Meat offered to idols, THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS who ignorantly THINK it's a bad thing, then abstain to avoid injuring THEIR conscience with your freedom. Rom 14.

                            I'm sorry, but that's just not my take.
                            "Your take" is irrelevant.

                            Bob is correct as that is the teaching of Scripture explicitly.

                            Bob: "He [Paul] says Eat what's put in front of you, and don't ask questions (since it doesn't matter)."

                            Scripture: "If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience."

                            Bob: "HOWEVER, if somebody clues you in about it being Meat offered to idols, THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS who ignorantly THINK it's a bad thing, then abstain to avoid injuring THEIR conscience with your freedom."

                            Scripture: "But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours."

                            Obviously, "your take" is error and Bob is exactly correct.

                            And if it were true about Paul, then you would have to say that Paul contradicted James and the Council of Jerusalem.
                            Nope. The error would be your own. "Your take" so to speak.

                            The fact that you thought "your take" ranks above the testimony of Scripture itself is interesting. A very Catholic notion, for sure.

                            ...
                            "Over the past 25 years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: (Justification By Faith by Peter Kreeft. Catholic Apologist)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                              Paul is clear, however. He says Eat what's put in front of you, and don't ask questions (since it doesn't matter). HOWEVER, if somebody clues you in about it being Meat offered to idols, THEN, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS who ignorantly THINK it's a bad thing, then abstain to avoid injuring THEIR conscience with your freedom. Rom 14.
                              Amen to that.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post

                                How do you prove using historical sources what is a fraud?
                                This is a book used by Muslims to try and prove the true Gospel message false.

                                http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/barnabas.htm

                                There is good evidence that links this Gospel of Barnabas to the 14th century A.D.

                                a/ The Jubilee Year. The Jubilee year is a celebration commanded by God in the Torah. It was to be observed every fifty years:
                                Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan. The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you (Leviticus 25:10-11, NIV).
                                In the year 1300 A.D. Pope Boniface VIII falsely proclaimed that the Jubilee shoHere are a few examples - 0 A.D.[7] Therefore, in the church's history there is a 50-year period when the Jubilee was thought by many to be every 100 years. The author of the Gospel of Barnabas has unknowingly accepted the Pope's false decree as true and included it in his book. For in the Gospel of Barnabas these words are put on Jesus' lips:

                                ...


                                So far we have seen that the author of the Gospel of Barnabas was not familiar with the language, history or geography of the time of Jesus. He also has several 14th century ideas in his book and the manuscript evidence dates from the 15th century onwards. It therefore is reasonable to conclude that the Gospel of Barnabas was composed in the 14th century A.D. and not in the 1st century by a disciple of Jesus. Is this a reasonable conclusion? It seems so because even some Islamic scholars agree with this dating:
                                As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery ... It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet the "Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides it farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha Allah are of the Koran. (Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989, p. 65)


                                2 Timothy 3
                                16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

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