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Perfect human nature or perfect sin nature?

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  • Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

    Are you explaing your regular Church procedure or expressing a theoretical ideal?

    Only God can forgive sins yes but evangelisation is about bringing a person into the life of Christ and that involves a whole lot of thought and discernment which are normally condemned as 'works' by Protestants.

    To re orient the discussion.... the Catholic mindset does not obsess on our own personal salvation in the way the Protestants do. Our goal is to be selfless rather than self oriented.
    Mercedes,

    We know you are not concerned about salvation very much. You rely on Purgatory.

    But Jesus plainly said He came to SAVE and not to judge. He plainly taught parables about Justification from Repentance and Faith
    He plainly expressed that Faith saves. Luke 7:50

    So Jesus expects us to be very concerned about our Salvation. He wants us to be saved and feel saved and be joyful about it.
    Now you come along and say it is no big deal. I don't think you have much to teach us.

    JohnR

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post

      How did you end up with ministers in the Methodist denomination?

      If there is no priesthood / no ordination, why did John Wesley go out of his way to have a Greek Orthodox bishop ordain him to the episcopate?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

        People in glass houses ...
        “Come near to Me, listen to this: from the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” [Isaiah 48:16 (NASB)]

        Comment


        • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

          Mercedes,

          We do that. But the Matt. 18 applies to all disciples of Christ. Not just to clergy. There was no clergy in the NT. To interpret scripture is not to make up things
          it does not say. There were no priests or clergy at all in the NT churches. We are all disciples of Christ.

          JohnR
          Jesus was talking to the Apostles, not to everyone. According to you, it would be up to the individual to determine if circumcision is binding on them or if the Gentiles could eat meat offered to idols or blood. Is that what you are saying? Everyone just determines what is required in their own eyes?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kmerian View Post

            No, there is a difference between being a denier and someone who values historical accuracy.

            I don't deny the inquisition occurred.

            What I do deny is the sensationalist propaganda that Protestants have built up around it over the years. Historians have begun taking a second look at the inquisition, And attitudes like Mr. DeRosa's are seen for what they are, sensationalism.
            kmerian,

            You do not seem to understand what the Papal Inquisition was. It was a systemic persecution and torture of protestants
            and Jews for no other reason than their beliefs. It was led by Popes. It spanned centuries and over many countries, far worse
            than the Christians persecuted in the early centuries. It is not "sensationalist propaganda." Your term shows you are a denier.
            You don't even seem apologetic for it.


            Paul Johnson, Catholic, History of Christianity p 308

            "The last official Spanish execution for heresy was in 1826, when a shool master
            was hanged for substituting 'Praise be to God' in place of 'Ave maria' in school
            prayers. The limpieza de sangre statutes remained valid (though increasingly
            unenforceable) until 1865."

            P 305 on the Jesuits.

            Above all the Jesuits were widely identified with the view that the moral
            code could in some way be suspended when Catholic interests were at risk.
            The Jesuits not only advocated war as a legitimate instrument against heresy
            but defended the selective murder of Protestants, especially if they held
            important positions. It was an extension of their educational techniques;
            If a ruler could not be converted, let him be slain.

            p 254
            "Ever since the 11th century, secular rulers had been burning those who
            obstinately refused to fit in with the established Christian arrangements;
            ....But in the 1180s, the Church began to panic at the spread of heresy, and
            thereafter it took the lead from the State, though it maintained the legal
            fiction that convicted and unrepentant heretics were merely 'deprived
            of the protection of the Church', which was (as they termed it) 'relaxed',
            the civil power then being free to burn them without committing mortal sin.
            Relaxation was accompanied by a formal plea for mercy; in fact this was
            meaningless, and the individual civil officer (sheriffs and so forth) had
            no choice but to burn, since otherwise he was denounced as a 'defender
            of heretics', and plunged into the perils of the system himself.
            The codification of legislation against heresy took place over half
            a century, roughly 1180-1230, when it culminated in the creation of a
            permanent tribunal, staffed by Dominican friars, who worked from a fixed
            base in conjunction with the episcopate, and were endowed with generous
            authority. The permanent system was designed as a reform; in fact it incorporated
            all the abuses of earlier practice and added new ones....
            possession of the scriptures in any language, or of breviaries, hour books
            and psalters in the vernacular, was forbidden."

            "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians
            by the Romans in the first three centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making
            every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition,
            along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind,
            revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."
            - Peter de Rosa, "Vicars of Christ: The Dark side of the Papacy", pg. 35


            "...it was the Popes who compelled bishops (Grand Inquisitors) and priests to condemn the heterodox
            to torture, confiscation of their goods, imprisonment, and death, and to enforce the execution of
            this sentence on the civil authorities, under pain of excommunication. From 1200 to 1500 the long
            series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their
            whole policy towards heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation;
            every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor. All is directed to the one end,
            of completely uprooting every difference of belief..."
            - J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, "The Pope and the Council", pp. 190-193


            "We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override
            (the Church's) Canon Law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture."
            - Pope Clement V's rebuke of King Edward II of England


            Pope Urban II (1088-1099), inspirer of the first Crusade, decreed that all heretics were to be
            tortured and killed. That became a dogma of the Church.


            "...they (heretics) have merited to be excluded from the earth by death."
            - Thomas Aquinas, "Summa Theologica", Vol. 4, pg. 90


            "Know that the interests of the Holy See, and those of your crown, make it a duty to exterminate
            the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare proclaim principles of equality; they maintain
            that all Christians are brethren, and that God has not given to privileged men the right of ruling the
            nations; they hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery; they call the people to liberty,
            that is to the annihilation of kings and priests. While there is still time, then, turn your
            forces against Bohemia; burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing can be more agreeable
            to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites."
            - Pope Martin V (1417-1431) in 1429 to the King of Poland


            "The Roman Catholics believe there is a Purgatory, and that the souls suffer more pains in it then in Hell:
            But I think that the Inquisition is the only Purgatory on earth, and the holy Fathers (Popes/priests) are
            the judges and executioners in it. The reader may form a dreadful idea of the barbarity of that Tribunal
            by what I have already said, but I am sure it never will come up to what it is in reality, for it passeth
            all understanding..."
            - D. Antonio Gavin, Catholic priest/eyewitness to the Spanish Inquisition, "A Master Key to ******:
            In Five Parts", pg. 253


            "Heresy is an awful crime against God, and those who start a heresy are more guilty than they who are
            traitors to the civil government. If the state has a right to punish treason with death, the principle
            is the same that concedes to the spiritual authority (the RCC) the power of life and death over the
            archtraitor (heretic)."
            - American Catholic weekly "The Tablet", November 5, 1938


            "A Church which pretends to be infallible will always seek the destruction of those who
            dissent from it."
            - Rev. John Foxe, "Book of Martyrs", Introduction


            "The Inquisitors appear to have sincerely believed that torture was a favour to a defendant already
            accounted guilty, since it might earn him, by confession, a slighter penalty than otherwise; even if
            he should, after confession, be condemned to death, he could enjoy priestly absolution to save
            him from hell."
            - Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization", Vol. VI, pg. 211


            The openly stated purpose of torture was "to cause the most intense pain to the prisoner. And
            for that the Inquisitors exchanged techniques."


            For at least a thousand years before the Reformation the true Church was composed of simple
            Christians who were not part of the Roman system. That such believers existed, refused to be
            called "Catholics", and worshiped independently of the Roman hierarchy is history. It is a
            fact that they were pursued to imprisonment and death since at least the end of the 4th century.
            Among the evidence in ancient records stands the "Edict of the Emperors Gratian, Valentinian II,
            and Theodosius I" of February 27, 380 which established Roman Catholicism as the state religion.
            In part it said:


            "We order those who follow this doctrine to receive the title of Catholic Christians, but
            others we judge to be mad and raving and worthy of incurring the disgrace of heretical teaching,
            nor are their assemblies to receive the name of churches. They are to be punished not only by
            Divine retribution but also by our own measures, which we have decided in accordance with
            Divine inspiration."
            - Sidney Z. Ehler/John B. Morrall, "Church and State through the Centuries", pg. 7


            "(These simple believers) denied that the (Roman Catholic) Church was the Church of Christ;
            (declared that) St. Peter had never come to Rome, had never founded the Papacy; (and that)
            the Popes were successors to the (Roman) Emperors, not to the Apostles. (They taught that)
            Christ had no place to lay His head, but the Popes lived in a palace; Christ was propertyless
            and penniless, but Christian prelates were rich; surely...these lordly archbishops and bishops,
            these worldly priests, these fat monks, were the Pharisees of old returned to life !
            The Roman Church, they were sure, was the Whore of Babylon, the clergy were a Synagogue of
            Satan, the Pope was antichrist. They denounced the preachers of crusades as murderers...
            laughed at indulgences and relics...they called the churches "dens of thieves" and Catholic
            priests seemed to them "traitors, liars, and hypocrites."
            - Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization", Vol. IV, pg. 772

            You say you respect the truth. So you decide if this is true or propaganda.

            JohnR

            Last edited by highrigger; 01-12-18, 12:32 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

              This is not the definition of perfect in the OT. In the OT they followed the law. Christ hadn't died yet.
              openheart,

              Read the parables by Jesus - The Good Samaritan as example of obedience to Gods Law
              and The tax collector and the Pharisee as Repentance giving Justification and self pride in ones goodness
              leading to no forgiveness.

              Jesus plainly taught forgiveness from not following the Law. You seem to not know what Jesus taught.
              You seem to not even know what is Gods Law Matt. 22:36. No surprise. Your CC does not address it.
              You seem to not even know what is a sin. 1 John 3:4. "Sin is disobedience to Gods Law"

              In other words, read scripture. Cannot discuss what Jesus taught unless you know what Jesus taught.

              JohnR

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
                That's because Scripture is privately interpreted outside the Church, each takes on his own meaning of Scripture to suit their own philosophies.
                Like this?

                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                I think "all have sinned" is a generalization and not an absolute. I could have equally pointed out Noah or Job.
                Or this:

                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                This is my own interpretation I don't think the Catholic church has made a statement on Job one way or the other. .
                Maybe this is the problem.

                Originally posted by Open Heart View Post
                We aren't talking about the same kind of perfection discussed in Hebrews. Perfect in the OT meant obedient of the commandments.
                It's kind of hard to take posts like this seriously when you admit you're interpreting this on your own.

                All have sinned. All. There is no perfection outside of Christ, otherwise there was no need for a Saviour.
                2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                  James specifically speaks about exposing your sins to another. "Confess your sins to each other". How else can that be interpreted? You seem to be saying it actually says "Don't confess your sins to each other"

                  Matthew 18 tells us that in the work of the Church 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. That is a very specific gift God gave the Church and if penitant and Priest were to together ask for Gods forgiveness of his sins.... why would you say it isn't possible.

                  That is why it is necessary to learn from the wise and holy fathers because we sinners blinded in our sin can actually interpret Scripture to mean the opposite of what it actually says, so easily.
                  It means confess your sins to each other. How did you get that she mean "don't" confess?

                  The loosing and binding refers to the Gospel, in no way does it mean anyone but God can forgive sin.

                  Mark 2:7 Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?

                  The part I underlined in your post is pretty much what you did in your first sentence.

                  2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                  Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nan View Post

                    How you came to that conclusion is anyone's guess.
                    James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

                    Does that mean confess you sins to each other or don't confess your sins to each other?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by nan View Post

                      Please focus. I asked for two specific things. First, where in scripture is it written that any apostle heard confessions?

                      Secondly, where does scripture say that God grants the penitent sinner forgiveness through another sinner?

                      What I’m looking for are any verses in God’s word that has the apostles practicing auricular confession. Please keep in mind that scripture says only God can forgive sins.


                      Matthew 18 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.

                      Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose in His name. The Church has done that in order to facilitate His command to confess our sins to each other. Do you believe that God left His Church an authority to bind and loose in His name or not?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by nan View Post

                        You folks not only do that but you add to what scripture never says.
                        The Church never adds to Scripture. The authority to bind and loose is clearly a role to guard the authenticity and transmission of Christ guaranteed by the Holy Spirit.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

                          Mercedes,

                          My church also has missionaries. But unlike your church our lay people are also involved directly. In fact my church built
                          a plant on church property with all volunteer labor which manufacturers devices to help poor Africans who have no legs
                          actually get from place to place. The operators also are volunteers. We send lay people to work in the missions once
                          per year although I have not participated in that I am sure other churches of my denomination do the same. Locally we
                          build wheelchair ramps for poor families where one has been incapacitated and needs a wheel chair. Materials alone costs
                          around $800 per ramp. We have built hundreds. I was involved in many.
                          This is just a small sample of our local works by common lay people of my church. We expect nothing for it but our own satisfaction.
                          We have already been saved by our faith. Our works are simply due to our thankfulness for what God has already done for us in
                          Christ. We do not need or care a flip about purgatory.

                          So you brag about your missionaries earning their justification but our work is in response and thankfulness for what God has
                          already done for us. And for yourself, since you only brag about others and knowing none of the details, it sounds as if you
                          do nothing at all. You tell us that we cannot be saved by faith alone but only with works yet you seem to have no works for that
                          purpose at all.

                          Seems you are arguing that you are saved by someone elses works? Tell us true how you yourself are imitating the Saints?
                          Then you brag. Thank God you are not like other men. Yes, I think we understand witness in another way.

                          I will guarantee you that the Evangelicals you demean are similar to us in our good works in our communities and around
                          the world. You should try to keep up with them and then you can brag on your good works you think saves you.

                          JohnR
                          You have not read the exchange of posts here. I was not bragging. I was defending the Church against the charge that Ansel07 made that " As for Catholics witnessing, it's usually the Jesuits or Missionaries who do it. The average layperson never does. This is so different from noncatholic Christians who witness to the lost often It is far more important than works and performances inside the church."

                          I know with 100% certainty that that claim is untrue propaganda. 100% .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                            James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

                            Does that mean confess you sins to each other or don't confess your sins to each other?
                            You confess your sins to priest. Does he confess his sins to you?
                            We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                              Matthew 18 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.

                              Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose in His name. The Church has done that in order to facilitate His command to confess our sins to each other. Do you believe that God left His Church an authority to bind and loose in His name or not?
                              God sent His church, us, the Holy Spirit. He gave no such authority to forgive sins to mortal man.

                              There is no mention anywhere in God's word that the apostles practiced auricular confession despite your efforts to make scripture say what it doesn't say.
                              We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by nan View Post
                                Originally posted by Mercedes View Post
                                James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

                                Does that mean confess you sins to each other or don't confess your sins to each other?
                                You confess your sins to priest. Does he confess his sins to you?
                                (Noted yet again that although you demand others answer your questions strictly as asked, that you yourself continue to ramble and fudge to avoid doing so.)

                                The command to confess your sins to each other is interpreted by the Church to be for the purpose of exposing our sins to accountability on behalf of the community and avoiding the human inclination to pridefulness that is the opposite disposition to receive Gods mercy and forgiveness. I've already posted earlier the practices of the early Church in obeying this command. Priests and even the Pope all avail themselves of sacramental confession.

                                Comment

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