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  • #76
    Originally posted by no-option View Post

    Thanks for the insults. Now let's get down to business and test your position on this topic. First of all, what I gave you is not simply a Catholic way of understanding apocalyptic writings. The following Protestant commentaries show the diversity of thought concerning the identity of the woman in Rev. 12. Some even demonstrate the "multiple" meanings.

    Gray's Home Bible Commentary says the woman in Rev 12 is Israel.

    Matthew Henry's Concise Bible Commentary says the woman in Rev 23 is the church.

    Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary On the Whole Bible says that the woman is Israel and the church.

    John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible denies Israel as the woman and believes it references the church. While this commentary does not believe that the woman represents Mary it still says this:

    .there may be an allusion to her, and in some things there is a likeness, as is by some observed; as Mary brought forth Christ corporeally, and God in the fulness of time sent forth his Son, made of a woman, so this woman brings forth Christ spiritually, or the manly birth of his kingdom in the world, or one that should be the instrument of enlarging his kingdom; and as Herod sought to destroy Christ in his infancy, and as soon as born, so the dragon here stands watching to destroy the manly birth as soon as brought forth; and as Joseph, with Mary, and her son, by a divine direction, fled into Egypt, where they continued during the reign of Herod, so to this woman are given two wings of an eagle, to flee into the wilderness, where she abides, and is nourished, during the reign of antichrist; and as Herod, after the flight of Mary, killed all the infants of Bethlehem, of two years of age, and under, that he might destroy her son, so the dragon casts out a flood of water after the woman, to carry her away, and makes war with the remnant of her seed; and as the son of Mary, after he had done his work, was taken up to heaven, and made Lord and Christ, so the man child, this woman brings forth, is caught up to God, and his throne, to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

    Asbury Bible Commentary says the following:
    Scholars debate whether the woman represents Mary, the church, Israel, or Jerusalem (Beasley-Murray, 191-97; Mounce, 235).
    ...
    .........
    Although the identity of the woman is unclear, four names identify the antagonist as the one who leads the whole world astray (v. 9)

    The Reformation Study Bible says the woman is Jerusalem bringing forth the Messiah and His remnant The Old Testament saints collectively and that Mary the mother of Jesus is included in this group, She is considered an outstanding member of the whole.

    The IVP New Testament Commentary Series indicates that the woman is Mary by way of the following;

    The mystery of Christmas is unfolded in various ways in the New Testament. In one account it is the story of poor visitors in Bethlehem who give birth to a child "destined to cause the fall and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed," with a warning to the mother that "a sword will pierce your own soul too" (Lk 2:34-35). In another account the infant Jesus is threatened by Herod the Great and taken to Egypt by his parents when Herod "gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under" (Mt 2:16).

    The third story, less well known, is a kind of transformation of the second. A pregnant woman is threatened by a great dragon that intends to "devour her child the moment it was born." But when she gives birth, the male child is "snatched up to God and to his throne," while the woman flees to the desert to "a place prepared for her by God" (Rev 12:4-6). Wherever we look, the mystery of Christmas is linked to danger and to the ancient conflict between good and evil.

    Barnes' Notes states that the woman is the church.

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges states the woman in Revelation 12 is definitely not the church, but is, instead, Israel and secondly and less importantly a reference to Mary. In this regard the commentary says:
    It may, however, perhaps be true that the ideal mother of the Lord is half identified in St John’s mind, and intended to be so in his reader’s, with His human mother.


    Notice how these Protestant commentaries show by their diverse interpretations that there are indeed several layers and each one recognizes certain things in the passages that points to either Israel, the church, or Mary. Likewise, they recognize that not every element supports each meaning and they therefore will select one meaning and reject one or two of the others. The fact is that the passage points to all three and can only do so by not being so narrow as to only point to one meaning.

    What is contained in this post clearly shows how you are wrong about apocalyptic writings and my comments in previous posts. In my next post, I will show why Revelation 12 clearly points to Mary as the woman.

    There is no Rev 23.

    And why are most of your references uncited.....no book, chapter or pg #. Don't want us checking your sources?
    And
    Revelation 12:1

    1 The woman is not Miryam, Yeshua's mother, but Israel, in its normal sense, the Jewish people, because the imagery is from Isaiah 66:7-10 (compare also Isaiah 26:17, Micah 4:10). Because of v. 17 this cannot be the “extended Israel” concept which includes Gentile Christians

    (from Jewish New Testament Commentary Copyright © 1992 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)
    Last edited by Nondenom40; 05-16-18, 08:49 AM.
    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post

      Ah yes, the Constantinian Conspiracy theory. I don't belong to a sect, but rather to a particular Catholic Church, and yes that particular Church traces its roots to the see of Constantinople. Thank you once again for making my point.
      No conspiracy here. Just facts. Even your 6th ecumenical counsel when it anathematized Honorius referred to him as 'pope of old rome'. Facts are not the friend of catholicism.
      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

        No conspiracy here. Just facts. Even your 6th ecumenical counsel when it anathematized Honorius referred to him as 'pope of old rome'. Facts are not the friend of catholicism.
        Of course you realize (a) "old Rome" would have been an empirical and political reference, given that Constantinople was the new capital, and (b) the 6th Ecumenical Council is fully recognized as such by the Catholic Church to this day. Just facts ...
        Though the godless poured poison in to your veins, your heart still beats with love for Christ,
        O bishop Theodore, martyred father, who now raise your prayers before the Throne of God.

        [Kontakion of Blessed Theodore (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
          There is no Rev 23.

          And why are most of your references uncited.....no book, chapter or pg #. Don't want us checking your sources?
          And

          Obviously, Rev 23 is a typo...it is Rev 12.

          As far as citations are concerned there is no need for me to give chapter and page. Anyone can easily open any of the quoted commentaries and immediately locate Rev 12. You can even do it online if you don’t have one or more in your personal possession.

          This evening after work I’ll demonstrate by scripture why some forcefully argue that Israel is not the woman referenced in Rev 12.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by no-option View Post

            Obviously, Rev 23 is a typo...it is Rev 12.

            As far as citations are concerned there is no need for me to give chapter and page. Anyone can easily open any of the quoted commentaries and immediately locate Rev 12. You can even do it online if you don’t have one or more in your personal possession.

            This evening after work I’ll demonstrate by scripture why some forcefully argue that Israel is not the woman referenced in Rev 12.
            And I just cited one that does. So?
            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post

              Please be advised that your Roman Catholic "writings," be they from any RCC pope or from the RCC Magisterium, are apparently the "apocalyptic writings" of your church, as they are filled with imagery and "multiple meanings," which categorically weak-minded and ignorant fools, who are ripe and ready to believe and have faith in any and every fable that comes from Rome, will latch on to. So much more could be said, but this explanation should be enough for now.
              and you and ND are so spot on this a.m., that i think I'll just go back to sleep for a few hours...

              keep going so I'll have something good to read when I wake up again...

              "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

              The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                And I just cited one that does. So?
                Yes, thus I presume that you also believe that the woman must be Israel. Am I wrong in that presumption based on your post?

                ”So” if that’s the case, be prepared to defend that view once I post the scriptural data that eliminates the possibility of Israel as the woman clothed with sun in Rev 12. If Israel is meant to be part of the meaning, it can only be in a secondary fashion and not as the primary meaning or sole meaning as your commentary and some of those I quoted happen to contend.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by no-option View Post

                  Yes, thus I presume that you also believe that the woman must be Israel. Am I wrong in that presumption based on your post?

                  ”So” if that’s the case, be prepared to defend that view once I post the scriptural data that eliminates the possibility of Israel as the woman clothed with sun in Rev 12. If Israel is meant to be part of the meaning, it can only be in a secondary fashion and not as the primary meaning or sole meaning as your commentary and some of those I quoted happen to contend.
                  Yes, its Israel not mary. And if you think it is mary then you'll have the honor of explaining away the dragon at the same time.
                  Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                    Yes, its Israel not mary. And if you think it is mary then you'll have the honor of explaining away the dragon at the same time.
                    Who told you this? Or, should we just take your word for it.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                      Why will I do that?

                      the woman may refer to Israel, the Church, or Mary.

                      Is it a multiple choice?

                      Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                        I have answered this in another post. the pains of mary are the pains she will suffer when her son will be crucified on the cross.

                        now, if you do not agree it is mary, who is the woman in revelation?
                        Is that before or after she grew wings?
                        Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post

                          Yes, there is. There's also a reason why bibical concordance is an effective tool.
                          It is actually more effective to actually read them
                          Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                            Is that before or after she grew wings?

                            Is 40:31

                            "but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."

                            Blessings
                            May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable, most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored and glorified in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth by all the creatures of God and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Amen.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post

                              Do you really want to infer that "sign(s)" has different meaning in the now compared verses?
                              It does not authenticate Mary

                              4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for.
                              Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Philomena View Post

                                Did "not a literal woman" give birth to a literal son in Rev 12?
                                Your Bishops dont agree

                                [12:1-6] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Gn37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 15:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon( Rev12:6 13:-7) cf.( Is 50:1 66:7 Her 50:12) This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

                                http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12
                                Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                                Comment

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