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RCs deny Augustine's teaching on dead unbaptized infants being condemned forever

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  • RCs deny Augustine's teaching on dead unbaptized infants being condemned forever

    Why not ask the greatest Catholic theologian what he says? Surely the greatest Catholic theologian can give a better answer about what the Church has taught than the lay Catholics here doing the "spin" deal and calling people names and rejecting church history...

    Mr. Augustine....what happens to little babies when they die? Do they go to Heaven or Hell?
    "Infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remain in this darkness"
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 35) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
    Those are pretty harsh words there Mr. Augustine! So you are saying that all babies not water baptized who die are condemned by God?
    "It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all."
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
    Well at least their condemnation is "mild." What do you think of all the lay Catholics here saying that such babies can escape condemnation and go to Heaven? What are we to think of Catholics that say that?
    "That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will NOT be involved in condemnation"
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned)
    Wow. So any Catholic here that says these babies do not go to Hell forever are deceiving us! How can they then call themselves Catholics, Mr, Augustine?
    "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."
    (Augustine - On the Soul, Book III, Chapter 12)
    But Mr. Augustine, what do you say about those Catholics here and their sect that say such infants can possibly go to Heaven instead?
    "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Lw...ist%22&f=false
    Incredible! Thank you, Mr. Augustine.

    There ya have it folks.

    Mr. Augustine emphatically confirms that he teaches that all unbaptized infants who die are condemned forever by God and anyone who says otherwise condemns the Catholic Church, opposes the Apostles, and cannot rightly call themselves a Catholic!

    Thus the Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."

    So much for that.

    See you Catholics next year when you deny this all over again! Hahahahahahaha.

    ...

    "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

  • #2
    Originally posted by Atemi View Post
    Why not ask the greatest Catholic theologian what he says? Surely the greatest Catholic theologian can give a better answer about what the Church has taught than the lay Catholics here doing the "spin" deal and calling people names and rejecting church history...

    Mr. Augustine....what happens to little babies when they die? Do they go to Heaven or Hell?
    "Infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remain in this darkness"
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 35) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
    Those are pretty harsh words there Mr. Augustine! So you are saying that all babies not water baptized who die are condemned by God?
    "It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all."
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
    Well at least their condemnation is "mild." What do you think of all the lay Catholics here saying that such babies can escape condemnation and go to Heaven? What are we to think of Catholics that say that?
    "That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will NOT be involved in condemnation"
    (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned)
    Wow. So any Catholic here that says these babies do not go to Hell forever are deceiving us! How can they then call themselves Catholics, Mr, Augustine?
    "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."
    (Augustine - On the Soul, Book III, Chapter 12)
    But Mr. Augustine, what do you say about those Catholics here and their sect that say such infants can possibly go to Heaven instead?
    "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Lw...ist%22&f=false
    Incredible! Thank you, Mr. Augustine.

    There ya have it folks.

    Mr. Augustine emphatically confirms that he teaches that all unbaptized infants who die are condemned forever by God and anyone who says otherwise condemns the Catholic Church, opposes the Apostles, and cannot rightly call themselves a Catholic!

    Thus the Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."

    So much for that.

    See you Catholics next year when you deny this all over again! Hahahahahahaha.

    ...
    I think the Catholic church often just changes their mind when they want to and everyone should get used to it. But Augustine was a real bad torturer
    of heretics Here is what is said about him. I would never call him a Saint or even a good worker in the church at all.


    The Donatist Church was huge, flourishing, wealthy, and deeply rooted. Even after a long
    bout of imperial persecution, inspired by Augustine, the Donatists were still able to produce
    nearly 300 bishops for the final attempt at compromise at Carthage in 411. Thereafter, in the course
    of two decades before Vandals overran the littoral, the back of the Donatist church was broken by force.

    He (Augustine) thought heretics should be examined 'not by streching them on the rack. not by scorching
    them with flames, or furrowing their flesh with iron claws, but by beating them with rods'.
    Paul Johnson, Catholic, A History of Christianity, p 116

    "Why not? He (Augustine) he would ask, If the State used such methods for its own miserable purposes,
    was not the Church entitled to do the same and more for its own far greater ones?" He not only accepted,
    he became the theorist of persecution; and his defenses were later to be those on which all defenses
    of the Inquisition rested."
    Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity, p116

    Does the Catholic church teach that it is fine to torture heretics?

    JohnR

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Atemi View Post
      Why not ask the greatest Catholic theologian what he says? Surely the greatest Catholic theologian can give a better answer about what the Church has taught than the lay Catholics here doing the "spin" deal and calling people names and rejecting church history...

      Mr. Augustine....what happens to little babies when they die? Do they go to Heaven or Hell?
      "Infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remain in this darkness"
      (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 35) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
      Those are pretty harsh words there Mr. Augustine!
      How so? What is the darkness of which St Augustine speaks?

      The phrase "remain in this darkness" indicates they are already in darkness so it looks like Augustine is merely saying they will remain in their present state.


      So you are saying that all babies not water baptized who die are condemned by God?
      "It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all."
      (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
      An example of mild condemnation would be missing out on experiencing the Beatific Vision of God so there is no claim of positive punishment for sin.



      Well at least their condemnation is "mild." What do you think of all the lay Catholics here saying that such babies can escape condemnation and go to Heaven? What are we to think of Catholics that say that?
      "That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will NOT be involved in condemnation"
      (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned)
      Amen! That is what the Catholic Church currently teaches. Looks like Catholic teaching has not changed.


      Wow. So any Catholic here that says these babies do not go to Hell forever are deceiving us! How can they then call themselves Catholics, Mr, Augustine?
      "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."
      (Augustine - On the Soul, Book III, Chapter 12)
      What Catholics here have said this?

      But Mr. Augustine, what do you say about those Catholics here and their sect that say such infants can possibly go to Heaven instead?
      "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants
      I agree. Such a belief is still heresy today.


      because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ"
      That was a common doctrine but never a dogma of the church.


      Thus the Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."
      It remains Catholic dogma that the souls of those who depart this life in original sin alone cannot be saved.

      For more information, I recommend reading "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized" on the Vatican website at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...nfants_en.html
      Last edited by logix; 05-17-18, 04:40 PM.
      "Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions" - Proverbs 18:2, NIV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Atemi View Post
        Why not ask the greatest Catholic theologian what he says? Surely the greatest Catholic theologian can give a better answer about what the Church has taught than the lay Catholics here doing the "spin" deal and calling people names and rejecting church history...


        St. Augustine had a theological opinion. What you won't find in his writings are any dogmatic statements. Catholic theologians over the centuries have given many varying opinions about the fate of the unbaptized. The Church has never dogmatically stated anything about it because it isn't part of the Divine Deposit of Faith transmitted from Jesus to the Apostles.

        Thank you for posting Augustine's work though. I am glad you are reading Catholic Fathers! And thank for acknowledging he is Catholic. You don't know how many Protestants like to use Augustine to support their Calvinistic views.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post
          St. Augustine had a theological opinion.
          That is not what he said. His testimony was that what he was teaching the doctrine of the Church and that of the Apostles.

          Regardless, the deceitful Catholic claim is that Augustine did not teach dead unbaptized babies all went to hell.

          Easily proven otherwise....when you understand church history and know the sources.

          Thank you for posting Augustine's work though.
          Any time I can prove Catholics are not speaking truthfully, I love it!

          I have done it before, under the same circumstances, and I will do it again....because Roman Catholic apologists never learn.

          I am glad you are reading Catholic Fathers!
          The second greatest reason why I am not a Roman Catholic anymore!

          I got tired of the Catholic lies.

          And thank for acknowledging he is Catholic.
          I enjoyed how he acknowledged the Catholic posters here cannot rightfully call themselves Catholics!

          Hahahahahahahahaha.

          ...
          "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

          Comment


          • #6
            I think the following quotes from "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized" mentioned above are helpful:

            34. In the Church's tradition, the affirmation that children who died unbaptised are deprived of the beatific vision has for a long time been “common doctrine”. This common doctrine followed upon a certain way of reconciling the received principles of revelation, but it did not possess the certitude of a statement of faith, or the same certitude as other affirmations whose rejection would entail the denial of a divinely revealed dogma or of a teaching proclaimed by a definitive act of the magisterium. The study of the history of the Church's reflection on this subject shows that it is necessary to make distinctions. In this summary we distinguish first, statements of faith and what pertains to the faith; second, common doctrine; and third, theological opinion.

            36. b) The affirmation that “the punishment for original sin is the loss of the beatific vision”, formulated by Innocent III pertains to the faith: original sin is of itself an impediment to the beatific vision. Grace is necessary in order to be purified of original sin and to be raised to communion with God so as to be able to enter into eternal life and enjoy the vision of God. Historically, the common doctrine applied this affirmation to the fate of unbaptised infants and concluded that these infants lack the beatific vision. But Pope Innocent’s teaching, in its content of faith, does not necessarily imply that infants who die without sacramental Baptism are deprived of grace and condemned to the loss of the beatific vision; it allows us to hope that God who wants all to be saved, provides some merciful remedy for their purification from original sin and their access to the beatific vision.

            http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...nfants_en.html
            Since hope isn't certainty, Augustine was correct to say:

            "That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they WILL NOT be involved in condemnation"
            No one can say they will not be condemned because no one knows their fate.


            "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."
            Catholics should not teach they can obtain remission of sin because they don't know that since the Church doesn't know their fate
            Last edited by logix; 05-17-18, 04:57 PM.
            "Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions" - Proverbs 18:2, NIV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Atemi View Post
              Why not ask the greatest Catholic theologian what he says? Surely the greatest Catholic theologian can give a better answer about what the Church has taught than the lay Catholics here doing the "spin" deal and calling people names and rejecting church history...

              Mr. Augustine....what happens to little babies when they die? Do they go to Heaven or Hell?
              "Infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remain in this darkness"
              (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 35) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

              I'm accepting of the apparent fact that the RCC has changed its dogmas on this since the early 5th Century when Augie walked the earth.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by logix View Post
                "Infants, unless they pass into the number of believers through the sacrament which was divinely instituted for this purpose, will undoubtedly remainin this darkness"
                (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 35) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
                Those are pretty harsh words there Mr. Augustine!

                How so? What is the darkness of which St Augustine speaks?
                A destiny in hell forever if death occurs before water baptism. Ya know, that doctrine Catholics deny today!


                So you are saying that all babies not water baptized who die are condemned by God?
                "It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all."
                (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm
                An example of mild condemnation would be missing out on experiencing the Beatific Vision of God so there is no claim of positive punishment for sin.
                Still in hell forever condemned by God.

                LOL.

                The very thing Catholics don't believe today and deny Augustine taught.

                Well at least their condemnation is "mild." What do you think of all the lay Catholics here saying that such babies can escape condemnation and go to Heaven? What are we to think of Catholics that say that?
                "That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will NOT be involved in condemnation"
                (Augustine - On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I, Chapter 21 Unbaptized Infants Damned)
                Amen! That is what the Catholic Church currently teaches. Looks like Catholic teaching has not changed.
                Your sect today does NOT teach that all unbaptized infants who die are condemned by God.

                Try the truth, please!

                Wow. So any Catholic here that says these babies do not go to Hell forever are deceiving us! How can they then call themselves Catholics, Mr, Augustine?
                "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."
                (Augustine - On the Soul, Book III, Chapter 12)
                What Catholics here have said this?
                Do you believe all unbaptized babies who die go to hell like Augustine is saying?

                But Mr. Augustine, what do you say about those Catholics here and their sect that say such infants can possibly go to Heaven instead?
                "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants
                I agree. Such a belief is still heresy today.
                If that was true, the RCC would teach that all such infants go to hell like they used to teach.

                Instead, the RCC now shrugs their shoulders and teaches that they don't know what Augustine just said.

                Hahahahahaha.

                because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ"

                That was a common doctrine but never a dogma of the church.
                Augustine says it is fact and to deny what he said is to condemn the Church and oppose the Apostles....just like you are doing now.

                LOL.

                Thus the Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."

                It remains Catholic dogma that the souls of those who depart this life in original sin alone cannot be saved.
                And Augustine makes it clear that no baby can depart this life free of original sin without the sacrament of water baptism.

                Of course, your church and her minions today all deny that....thus rejecting the decree of one of their own infallible councils!

                Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha.

                ...
                "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by logix View Post
                  It remains Catholic dogma that the souls of those who depart this life in original sin alone cannot be saved.
                  Of course the Bible itself SAYS NO SUCH THING. and so the "Roman Catholic" church has made up it's OWN satanic THEORY of what happens to aborted fetuses, and newborns that don't "make it" (Like my first daughter). Limbo WAS a nice fairy tale, that apparently interfered with the "Baptism mill", so they suddenly are distancing themselves from that fantasy. Bergoglio the universalist will probably have an "Ex cathedra" about it any time now - (been 68 years since the last one).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Atemi View Post

                    A destiny in hell forever if death occurs before water baptism. Ya know, that doctrine Catholics deny today!
                    Augustine said they are already in darkness and will remain in their present state.

                    You would know that if you bothered to read what he wrote in context.

                    "I have come," says Christ, "a light into the world, that whosoever believes in me should not abide in darkness." Now what does this passage show us, but that every person is in darkness who does not believe in Him, and that it is by believing on Him that he escapes from this permanent state of darkness? What do we understand by the darkness but sin?"


                    Still in hell forever condemned by God.

                    LOL.

                    The very thing Catholics don't believe today and deny Augustine taught.



                    Your sect today does NOT teach that all unbaptized infants who die are condemned by God.

                    Try the truth, please!



                    Do you believe all unbaptized babies who die go to hell like Augustine is saying?



                    If that was true, the RCC would teach that all such infants go to hell like they used to teach.

                    Instead, the RCC now shrugs their shoulders and teaches that they don't know what Augustine just said.

                    Hahahahahaha.



                    Augustine says it is fact and to deny what he said is to condemn the Church and oppose the Apostles....just like you are doing now.

                    LOL.



                    And Augustine makes it clear that no baby can depart this life free of original sin without the sacrament of water baptism.

                    Of course, your church and her minions today all deny that....thus rejecting the decree of one of their own infallible councils!

                    Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha.

                    ...
                    Looks like you misunderstood Augustine. Try rereading what he wrote again and let me know if you still need help understanding.
                    Last edited by logix; 05-17-18, 05:23 PM.
                    "Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions" - Proverbs 18:2, NIV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      Of course the Bible itself SAYS NO SUCH THING. and so the "Roman Catholic" church has made up it's OWN satanic THEORY of what happens to aborted fetuses, and newborns that don't "make it" (Like my first daughter). Limbo WAS a nice fairy tale, that apparently interfered with the "Baptism mill", so they suddenly are distancing themselves from that fantasy. Bergoglio the universalist will probably have an "Ex cathedra" about it any time now - (been 68 years since the last one).
                      Where does the Bible say those who die guilty of sin who are not forgiven will go to Heaven?
                      "Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions" - Proverbs 18:2, NIV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Atemi View Post



                        Regardless, the deceitful Catholic claim is that Augustine did not teach dead unbaptized babies all went to hell.
                        Please quote one. If you are going to assert this, then back it up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by logix View Post




                          It remains Catholic dogma that the souls of those who depart this life in original sin alone cannot be saved.
                          Thanks for your admittance.

                          It's been my observation and discovery that Catholic & Scripture do not go hand in hand.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by logix View Post

                            How so? What is the darkness of which St Augustine speaks?

                            The phrase "remain in this darkness" indicates they are already in darkness so it looks like Augustine is merely saying they will remain in their present state.

                            An example of mild condemnation would be missing out on experiencing the Beatific Vision of God so there is no claim of positive punishment for sin.

                            Amen! That is what the Catholic Church currently teaches. Looks like Catholic teaching has not changed.

                            What Catholics here have said this? I agree. Such a belief is still heresy today.

                            That was a common doctrine but never a dogma of the church.

                            It remains Catholic dogma that the souls of those who depart this life in original sin alone cannot be saved.

                            For more information, I recommend reading "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized" on the Vatican website at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...nfants_en.html
                            So since you say the Donatists were heretics, that means it was proper to torture them?

                            Like in the Papal Inquisition?

                            Do you have any embarrassment about that at all?

                            JohnR

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by logix View Post
                              Looks like you misunderstood Augustine.
                              Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha. Of course I did!

                              "In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell."

                              http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...nfants_en.html

                              I bet the Vatican also misunderstands Augustine too!

                              ROFL!

                              ...
                              "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                              Comment

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