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Unam Sanctam isn't binding on all the faithful,

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    See post 9
    Yes. Another example of it doesn't mean what it says and it doesn't say what it means.

    Either that or, Catholics are in need of an infallible interpreter to interpret the infallible proclamation of what it really really means.
    Goats love their tea!

    Strong's #3982

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tester View Post

      for everyone? or just "for the person it was addressed to."
      It is binding for every living person, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus,, outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

      Unam Sanctam is solemn dogmatic teaching. It is De fide dogma. A Papal Bull has more weight than an encyclical and notice the language used in the Bull, it is binding.

      This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that EVERY HUMAN CREATURE be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
      Unam Sanctam is addressed to every human creature! Where in the bull does it say it is only addressed to a particular person or king or queen? It doesn't. Papal bulls are not only addressed to individuals, that is bunk and is completely made up.
      "The Holy Roman Church condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post

        Yes, it is absolutely binding.
        The Mormons have the same kinda rule..and they even have a "spirit prison" (purgatory) where they get an opportunity to convert to Mormonism after they die.. is it too late to become RC after death?
        Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post

          It is binding for every living person, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus,, outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

          Unam Sanctam is solemn dogmatic teaching. It is De fide dogma. A Papal Bull has more weight than an encyclical and notice the language used in the Bull, it is binding.



          Unam Sanctam is addressed to every human creature! Where in the bull does it say it is only addressed to a particular person or king or queen? It doesn't. Papal bulls are not only addressed to individuals, that is bunk and is completely made up.
          Unam sanctum is binding on the weak minded and spiritually blinded. It's a paper anathema, meaningless. Put your trust in God, not these prideful idiots. Wonder why Peter never got around to penning anything like this?
          Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

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          • #20
            Originally posted by tester View Post

            for everyone? or just "for the person it was addressed to."
            When scripture says those who don't believe will be condemned, it is binding on everyone or just those above the age of reason?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tester View Post

              Is JoeT presenting the correct Catholic understanding of Unam Sanctam?
              <bold added>
              I think JoeT's understanding is correct. The Pope was reminding the king that everyone, including kings, must subject themselves to the Roman Pontiff.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by logix View Post

                I think JoeT's understanding is correct. The Pope was reminding the king that everyone, including kings, must subject themselves to the Roman Pontiff.
                but that is not what JoeT said

                JoeT said
                the Unam Sanctam isn't binding on all the faithful,

                JoeT said
                the Bull binding on the King of France;

                JoeT said
                Unam Sanctam is infallible for the person it was addressed to.


                Do you still think JoeT is correct?
                One of the ekklēsia

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tester View Post
                  According Catholics: is this true?

                  "Unam Sanctam
                  isn't binding on all the faithful"

                  According to Catholics: is this infallible?

                  "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.""
                  Reiterating a previous post.

                  Doctrine can be thought of as the body of truths taught by the Church. Doctrine literally means the “act of teaching,” hence we think of it in the same sense as the Catechesis. Doctrine can have many sources; it could be Sacred Tradition, or Sacred Scripture. But, there is more, doctrine can also be simple religious custom or just plain custom of a local community, legends, or it can be the disciplines of the Church, or religious customs such as genuflecting and making the sign of the cross, forms of respect.

                  Whereas, dogma is the “doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation” [Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Modern Catholic Dictionary]. The literal meaning of dogma is ‘declaration’ or ‘decree’. The faithful are obliged to accept dogma as God’s revelation of God as found in Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture as a matter of salvation. I realize there is a fine distinction between the two, but one that should be made in these types of discussions.

                  With regard to the legend regarding St. Thomas teaching in India and his martyrdom is just that, an unverifiable story about St. Thomas. Another such legend is that he bore a close physical resemblance to Christ because “Thomas” means twin. The Apostolic narrative of Thomas is handed to us through the Church down through the ages. We are not obliged to ‘believe’ legends as a matter of salvation. Likewise, if we fail to observe a religious custom, as an example we fail to genuflect before the altar, we do not regard this as a matter of salvation - unless of course it is a deliberate disrespect to Christ or the Church.
                  Originally posted by tester View Post
                  you asked "What does it mean to you when it is said that doctrine is not Biblical?"my reply was: that means it is not in the Bible therefore it is NOT from an inerrant book.


                  All dogma is doctrine of God’s revealed truth and as such it cannot conflict with Scripture. Otherwise, God would be viewed as conflicted - unable to make up His mind what is true; a counterintuitive absurdity. On the other hand, Catholicism takes Scripture to be inerrant and no teaching of Catholic dogma conflicts with scripture. In your previous response to the question “that doctrine is not Biblical,” you said “it is not in the bible: it may be true or false, (ex Thomas founded the Churches in India) but it is not Biblical” Whether or not St. Thomas is the founder of India’s Church isn’t dogmatic, and isn’t doctrine except with the caveat of being a legend.

                  Consequently, we should find that a true dogmatic doctrine does not conflict with Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. Can you name a dogmatic doctrine that does conflict with Sacred Scripture?
                  Originally posted by tester View Post

                  Again you asked

                  Can there be a doctrine that doesn't contradict the Bible and doesn't exist in the Bible? Again:if it doesn't exist in the Bible then it did not have an infallible source too funny There are different interpretations presented by CARM Catholics of what Unam Sanctum really means. Do you even consider it to be infallible?

                  Catholics here, like me, find the description of “CARM Catholic” to be offensive. It denotes a Catholic that is CARM like - which is primarily heretical in nature. I have no problems with the being called ‘Roman Catholic,” but that only describes one Rite of Catholicism and omits a great many in communion with the Bishop of Rome; more properly we should be referred to as “Catholics”

                  Your example is merely used to deflect the conversation to Unam Sanctam and it’s a perceived conflict with your perceived inalienable right to believe whatever proceeds out of you, not the truth; but, we’ll address it anyway.

                  There is only one interpretation, the truth as witnessed by history.

                  Unam Sanctam is infallible for the person it was addressed to. The Pope clearly is telling the King of France that the state must subject itself to spiritual authority, represented by Pope Boniface VIII. At the time in the 14th century the Pope was both an authority of state and a spiritual authority. In his conflict with Philip the Fair the Pope could address the State of France as the head of state, or as the head of the Body of Christ, a spiritual kingdom.

                  Philip IV of France and Edward Longshanks of England were at war, former in 1286 A.D. and the latter in 1274 A.D.; each had placed embargos or imposed ecclesiastical seizures of properties and funds needed by the Pope in the Holy Lands. Both were dependent on clerical revenues and levies to support the war. You might recall that the Pope crowned both as Christian Kings. Hence, they owed allegiance to the Pope as a matter of state and as a matter of faith. In a previous Bull Boniface loudly protested royal acts and he had no intent for gifts to the Church to be used in defense of a Christian nation against another Christian nation. In 1296 the Pope wrote the Papal Bull Ineffabilis amor to Philip saying that “Christ gave His bride, the Church, dominion so that She could exercise power over all the faithful." He threatened Philip to throw his alliance to England in their dispute; all he needed to do is lift the sanctions against the Church. Philip’s response was to circulated a FAKE NEWS pamphlet claiming Boniface held the temporal authority of the King was superior to that of the Church. In response Boniface brought together a synod of French Bishops at which he issued the Papal Bull Unam Sanctam which as I’ve previously said spiritual authority ruled over any temporal power. The Papal Bull reminds the French king that his very salvation depends on being subject to the Roman Pontiff.

                  These are little pieces of history that embarrasses and must be suppressed by your heretical sect to 'tell the lie'; the FAKE NEWS PROPHETS.

                  JoeT
                  Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                  Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tester View Post
                    According Catholics: is this true?

                    "Unam Sanctam
                    isn't binding on all the faithful"
                    It depends on the Catholic you ask and what argument they are trying to win at the time.

                    They all make their religion up as they go.

                    According to Catholics: is this infallible?

                    ""Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.""
                    They can no more discern that than they can discern any one of their wafers is their god.

                    The answer depends on which Catholic you ask and what time of day it is.

                    ...

                    "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tester View Post
                      for everyone? or just "for the person it was addressed to."
                      In this case, Catholics cannot seem to understand what the meaning of "every human creature" is.

                      ROFL!

                      ...
                      "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Catholic tactic #44: be very wordy and use a LOT of block text to hide your contradiction and inability to reason.

                        Originally posted by JoeT View Post
                        Doctrine can be thought of as the body of truths taught by the Church. Doctrine literally means the “act of teaching,” hence we think of it in the same sense as the Catechesis. Doctrine can have many sources; it could be Sacred Tradition, or Sacred Scripture. But, there is more, doctrine can also be simple religious custom or just plain custom of a local community, legends, or it can be the disciplines of the Church, or religious customs such as genuflecting and making the sign of the cross, forms of respect.

                        Whereas, dogma is the “doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation” [Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Modern Catholic Dictionary]. The literal meaning of dogma is ‘declaration’ or ‘decree’. The faithful are obliged to accept dogma as God’s revelation of God as found in Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture as a matter of salvation. I realize there is a fine distinction between the two, but one that should be made in these types of discussions.

                        With regard to the legend regarding St. Thomas teaching in India and his martyrdom is just that, an unverifiable story about St. Thomas. Another such legend is that he bore a close physical resemblance to Christ because “Thomas” means twin. The Apostolic narrative of Thomas is handed to us through the Church down through the ages. We are not obliged to ‘believe’ legends as a matter of salvation. Likewise, if we fail to observe a religious custom, as an example we fail to genuflect before the altar, we do not regard this as a matter of salvation - unless of course it is a deliberate disrespect to Christ or the Church.

                        All dogma is doctrine of God’s revealed truth and as such it cannot conflict with Scripture. Otherwise, God would be viewed as conflicted - unable to make up His mind what is true; a counterintuitive absurdity. On the other hand, Catholicism takes Scripture to be inerrant and no teaching of Catholic dogma conflicts with scripture. In your previous response to the question “that doctrine is not Biblical,” you said “it is not in the bible: it may be true or false, (ex Thomas founded the Churches in India) but it is not Biblical” Whether or not St. Thomas is the founder of India’s Church isn’t dogmatic, and isn’t doctrine except with the caveat of being a legend.

                        Consequently, we should find that a true dogmatic doctrine does not conflict with Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. Can you name a dogmatic doctrine that does conflict with Sacred Scripture?

                        Catholics here, like me, find the description of “CARM Catholic” to be offensive. It denotes a Catholic that is CARM like - which is primarily heretical in nature. I have no problems with the being called ‘Roman Catholic,” but that only describes one Rite of Catholicism and omits a great many in communion with the Bishop of Rome; more properly we should be referred to as “Catholics”

                        Your example is merely used to deflect the conversation to Unam Sanctam and it’s a perceived conflict with your perceived inalienable right to believe whatever proceeds out of you, not the truth; but, we’ll address it anyway.

                        There is only one interpretation, the truth as witnessed by history.

                        Unam Sanctam is infallible for the person it was addressed to. The Pope clearly is telling the King of France that the state must subject itself to spiritual authority, represented by Pope Boniface VIII. At the time in the 14th century the Pope was both an authority of state and a spiritual authority. In his conflict with Philip the Fair the Pope could address the State of France as the head of state, or as the head of the Body of Christ, a spiritual kingdom.

                        Philip IV of France and Edward Longshanks of England were at war, former in 1286 A.D. and the latter in 1274 A.D.; each had placed embargos or imposed ecclesiastical seizures of properties and funds needed by the Pope in the Holy Lands. Both were dependent on clerical revenues and levies to support the war. You might recall that the Pope crowned both as Christian Kings. Hence, they owed allegiance to the Pope as a matter of state and as a matter of faith. In a previous Bull Boniface loudly protested royal acts and he had no intent for gifts to the Church to be used in defense of a Christian nation against another Christian nation. In 1296 the Pope wrote the Papal Bull Ineffabilis amor to Philip saying that “Christ gave His bride, the Church, dominion so that She could exercise power over all the faithful." He threatened Philip to throw his alliance to England in their dispute; all he needed to do is lift the sanctions against the Church. Philip’s response was to circulated a FAKE NEWS pamphlet claiming Boniface held the temporal authority of the King was superior to that of the Church. In response Boniface brought together a synod of French Bishops at which he issued the Papal Bull Unam Sanctam which as I’ve previously said spiritual authority ruled over any temporal power. The Papal Bull reminds the French king that his very salvation depends on being subject to the Roman Pontiff.

                        These are little pieces of history that embarrasses and must be suppressed by your heretical sect to 'tell the lie'; the FAKE NEWS PROPHETS.

                        JoeT
                        "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JoeT

                          edit

                          JoeT
                          these are your words : right?

                          JoeT said
                          the Unam Sanctam isn't binding on all the faithful,

                          JoeT said
                          the Bull binding on the King of France;

                          JoeT said
                          Unam Sanctam is infallible for the person it was addressed to.
                          Last edited by 4Him; 07-09-18, 04:06 PM.
                          One of the ekklēsia

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JoeT
                            edit.
                            I did not express confusion, but instead, clarity.

                            ...
                            Last edited by 4Him; 07-09-18, 04:07 PM.
                            "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

                              If it's true, it is true for everyone, including you. Just like contraception. Contraception being an implicitly evil act is not just true for Catholics, but everyone, Christian or non-Christian.
                              Wow, you know Mussolini talked the same way. Coincidence?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DMBD View Post

                                Wow, you know Mussolini talked the same way. Coincidence?
                                I didn't realize that Mussolini thought contraception was evil. Go figure.

                                Comment

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