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Roman Catholic Priesthood

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mica View Post
    Originally posted by Mercedes View Post
    The Priesthood continues the Apostolic model. Jesus saw fit to specially choose a group of men who were receptive to His Spirit and taught them not only about the New Covenant God was making with His people... but importantly about His very nature as both a man and God , what we describe as "consubstantial with the Father". This group operated as a brotherhood of leaders commissioned to stand for Christ after His ascension into heaven. They were privy to His mysteries in a way that the following generations would need to accept by faith. "Blessed are those who have not seen but yet believe" (John 20 29) Their commission involved real communion and agreement on essential beliefs to preserve the truth. They taught strongly against the type of disagreement that resulted in broken communion and literal division on matters of faith and morals.

    So my faith in the institution of the Church and requirement to submit to and obey it (Heb 13 17)... is confirmed by the Apostolic model of collegial brotherhood (Priesthood)the Church has maintains to this day.
    was that always so or else when did it happen?
    Galatians 2 makes a clear case for a system of accountability and agreement among the Apostles Church.
    Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up in response to a revelation. Then I laid before them (though only in a private meeting with the acknowledged leaders) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure that I was not running, or had not run, in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false believers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us— 5 we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you. 6 And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They asked only one thing, that we remember the poor, which was actually what I was eager to do.
    Paul experienced the inefficiency of leaders doing their own thing and was compelled by a revelation to go to the 'acknowledged pillars' for confirmation of His commission. I find it hard to believe that Christ left no source of accountability and agreement when the Apostles... the original final word on earth, died.

    major differences in the 'faith' of catholics and that of one who is born again. My faith is in Christ alone and I submit my life to Him, not man.

    I simply don't recognise the Church Christ described in invisible churches of one who've interpreted so many of the Scriptural commands right out of existence because they were taught before St Paul. You have put Paul above Christ.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post

      You're either begging or pirating; Jesus never instituted a Church which would inquisition to death and take away Bibles from blood washed redeemed sinners, and teach two sinless mediators and advocates.
      The fact that one of Jesus very own chosen twelve participated in His death shows that the Church on earth is made up of sinners in need of constant penance and renewal.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

        Just as Paul articulated to the Ephesians and to us all... Eph 4 11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.
        No priesthood there
        Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
          Originally posted by Mercedes View Post
          Just as Paul articulated to the Ephesians and to us all... Eph 4 11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.
          No priesthood there
          Not even the priesthood of believers?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

            The fact that one of Jesus very own chosen twelve participated in His death shows that the Church on earth is made up of sinners in need of constant penance and renewal.
            RCC's succession of Judas?
            1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
              RCC's succession of Judas?
              If your position is that every Catholic person is as evil as Judas, there's nothing to discuss. You are among the majority of CARMist nonCC's but not among normal honest nonCC's who know that isn't true.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                Not even the priesthood of believers?
                1Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

                No mention of RCC priesthood setting up confessional boxes to hear sins and hand out penance.

                1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post
                  Did Jesus Christ institute a New Testament priesthood?
                  Why of course Its recorded in 1 Peter 2:9
                  King James Bible
                  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


                  Without Love we are nothing more than noise makers.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
                    1Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                    1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

                    No mention of RCC priesthood setting up confessional boxes to hear sins and hand out penance.
                    Who decides on how the Church Christ instituted is manifest to us today? Isn't that the job of leadership? Afterall Scripture tells us to obey and submit to our leadership. (Heb 13 17) What is to obey and submit to if they have no job or authority? Does your church stay strictly to Scriptural teaching on how the churches were manifest in the first century? How about 1 Corinthians 14?

                    33 For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

                    If your church doesn't observe this command than it can only mean that your leadership has decided something different about how church manifests today.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                      Not even the priesthood of believers?
                      The discussion is about the NT church ...Peter actually makes clear here that there is no more set aside priesthood.. ...The Jewish priesthood was a set apart "special "tribe, there is no more a select people with access to the Holy of Holies.. but now all believers have that access to offer spiritual sacrifices and praise

                      The High Priest was a type of Christ ..fulfilled when Christ became both Priest and Lamb ...the priesthood was then destroyed
                      Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

                        Because they're a participation of His priesthood, where he receives our confessions and forgives us for our sins?

                        By the way, we should all agree that Jesus did institute the priesthood of believers at the very least.
                        Of course there was the priesthood of ALL believers But NO priests and NO ordination in the NT and no confession of sins to a confessor
                        in the NT. Even your own church does not deny these history facts.


                        Dictionary of Biblical Theology
                        Xavier Leon-Dufour p 88

                        "The practice of disclosing ones sins to a man who has received the power
                        to forgive them does not seem to be attested to in the NT; both fraternal
                        correction and community admonitions are intended to make the guilty one
                        acknowledge his external faults. (Mt 18:15) The mutual confession
                        recommended in Jm 5:15 is perhaps inspired by a Jewish practice, and 1Jn 1:9
                        does not give the precise form that the necessary admonition has to take."

                        "This work will prove of inestimable value to anyone who reads the bible"
                        Father Roland Murphy, Catholic Bible Quarterly

                        JohnR

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                          Who decides on how the Church Christ instituted is manifest to us today? Isn't that the job of leadership? Afterall Scripture tells us to obey and submit to our leadership. (Heb 13 17) What is to obey and submit to if they have no job or authority? Does your church stay strictly to Scriptural teaching on how the churches were manifest in the first century? How about 1 Corinthians 14?

                          33 For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

                          If your church doesn't observe this command than it can only mean that your leadership has decided something different about how church manifests today.
                          That was not the practice in the early church. Later, women were removed from leadership as described in the NT books of later authorship.

                          "The roles of women in positions of leadership in the early
                          church deserves special attention. It is clear that by the
                          end of the second century the official leadership of the church
                          was entirely masculine. But the matter is not quite as clear
                          in earlier times. Particularly in the New Testament, there are
                          indications that women also had positions of leadership. Phillip
                          had four daughters who 'prophesied' - that is, who preached.
                          Phoebe was a female deacon in Cenchreae, and Junia was counted
                          among the apostles. What actually seems to have taken place is
                          that during the second century, in its efforts to combat heresy,
                          the church centralized its authority, and a by-product of that
                          process was that women were excluded from positions of leadership.
                          But still in the early years of the second century, Governor
                          Pliny informed Trajan that he had ordered that two Christian
                          female ministers- ministrae - be tortured."
                          The Story of Christianity, Justol Gonzaliz, page 114.

                          My church has female pastors. They are great.

                          I once spoke to a Catholic nun who surprisingly mentioned her regret she could not participate

                          in her church to the same level as women did in mine.

                          JohnR

                          JohnR

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                            Who decides on how the Church Christ instituted is manifest to us today? Isn't that the job of leadership? Afterall Scripture tells us to obey and submit to our leadership. (Heb 13 17) What is to obey and submit to if they have no job or authority?
                            ...
                            If your church doesn't observe this command than it can only mean that your leadership has decided something different about how church manifests today.[/QUOTE]
                            You mean like submission to those who make up Tradition not taught by Scripture, Jesus, or his apostles?

                            1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                              The discussion is about the NT church ...Peter actually makes clear here that there is no more set aside priesthood.. ...The Jewish priesthood was a set apart "special "tribe, there is no more a select people with access to the Holy of Holies.. but now all believers have that access to offer spiritual sacrifices and praise

                              The High Priest was a type of Christ ..fulfilled when Christ became both Priest and Lamb ...the priesthood was then destroyed
                              The Catholic priesthood is very clearly the new order of priesthood in a continuation of the line of Melchizedek rather than the Levite priesthood. That is testified to in the body proper of every Eucharist. It was not a re establishing of a priesthood of the Mosaic Law but of the New Law of Christ. We recognise the authority of Melchizedek in the Catholic Priest.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
                                ...
                                If your church doesn't observe this command than it can only mean that your leadership has decided something different about how church manifests today.
                                You mean like submission to those who make up Tradition not taught by Scripture, Jesus, or his apostles?
                                Does your church observe the command against women speaking in church?

                                Comment

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