Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

What councils do you accept, and why?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by nan View Post

    Where does scripture say that (1) Mary is the mother of God and that (2) Mary carried God in her womb?

    And yes, I'd like those specific words.
    Sure! When you show me the phrase "Triune God" or even "Trinity".
    “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Atemi View Post

      The meeting is recorded in Scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...unlike all the gatherings and writings you follow.
      Ah yes, so anything that happened to Christianity after the Scriptures doesn't count. No Reformation to worry about then!



      Originally posted by Atemi
      "They"? Who is "they"?
      CARM. Like, I literally gave you the link and said "when you look at CARM, they recognize... etc. How'd you get confused?


      Originally posted by Atemi
      Yeah. That tends to be important to Christ followers. I know you Roman Catholics have no real use for it. Catholics seek "the witness of councils"....of which they only believe and obey the parts they cherry pick.
      It's actually extremely important! That's why we do councils, and the Eucharist, and everything else. We follow the Apostles because they followed Christ.


      That was a local meeting to address the false teaching coming out of Judea.
      A local meeting of what? Plumbers? Politicians?

      No, it was the first council of the Church, making a decision that would affect the rest of the Church. I know that's hard for you to understand, not being a part of historic Christianity.


      I obviously do not. The Apostles did not convene all those very late arriving councils you have a crush on. Actually, the Apostles and all the churches they planted turned their world absolutely upside down for Jesus Christ...WITHOUT all these meet ups and arguments and debates you are so dependent on.

      Sad.
      That's a weird way to phrase "respect the teachings of the Christian Church". The Apostles also didn't form the canon for the Bible, since all of them died. It's almost like as if the Apostles were the foundation for a group of Christians that had ordained leaders or something.

      Yes, and they still continue to do so today. Have you met the bishops at those churches? They still preach the Gospel, Atemi.
      You would know that if you were a part of historical Christianity.

      [QUOTE]You mean what some guys did.

      And we know Catholics feel the same because they cherry pick what they will follow and believe from those same councils...and ignore the rest.

      I am not interested in that life of hypocrisy.

      Yes, some guys being Christian leaders. :P I would recommend you look them up!
      Atemi, either be upset that we acknowledge and follow the Christian councils or be upset that we don't. You can't have it both ways there, bud.

      There is no such thing as a faith called "historical Christianity."

      I follow the faith taught by Christ and His Apostles. You are not even following their doctrines, instead following a late arriving religion you call "historical Christianity"!

      LOL.
      It's not a "faith", it's an entity. Christianity that existed and continue to exists in history, or Historical Christianity. This is in comparison to groups that broke away from this and formed their own 'churches'.

      You do? Then please, show me this faith in early Christian history. Show me where Christians proclaimed what you did in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. Even the 4th! Go ahead, Atemi.
      I'll be waiting right here.
      “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
        There is no "question" to address.

        Yes there is. I'm asking you, in the history of Christian councils going all the way back to Jerusalem, which ones do you accept?
        That is not a question ANY Christ follower needs to address.

        Christ followers follow the Word of God, not the debates and votes of men.

        You've clearly said you reject all of them (and the Christian teachings that they defended).
        I never said any such thing.

        You really need to do much better than falsehoods about people if you want anyone to take you seriously.

        The Apostles did not teach anyone to make sure to believe and obey whatever future supposed "councils" dictate. That would be as dumb as all get out, and Christ followers know better.

        The Apostles taught the Church to follow their leaders, the Bishops, Elders and Deacons.
        In following the Word of God.

        Because of their authority, they could call a council to determine truth against lies, misunderstandings and heresies.
        Church leaders are not called on to determine truth, but instead are called on to teach the Word of God as given.

        Christ followers already have the truth.

        Cult leaders and con artists insist they should determine the truth for everyone else.

        LOL.

        Instead, rejecting the councils would be dumb
        Catholics already reject MUCH of those same councils.

        The hypocrisy of it all IS dumb.

        , as that's how you end up with non-Christian religions like the Watchtower and the Mormons.
        We end up with cult like systems like Mormonism and JWs and Roman Catholicism because of following the debates and councils of men and not the Word of God.

        What all those above also have in common is that they all teach we must follow their leaders in everything they determine to be true. The cult mind is the same across the lot of them.

        The Apostles and the early church did not need nor did they even nod to any of your silly councils. They knew nothing of them, and they meant nothing to them, as the Apostles and the churches they planted turned their world upside down for Christ.

        The Apostles were all dead by the time the next council came about.
        And they somehow turned their world upside down for Jesus Christ without a single declaration of all your late arriving councils.

        If you cannot do the math, that is too bad. I can.

        Of course, even Roman Catholics cherry pick the parts of their councils they want to believe and obey...and the parts they take upon themselves to ignore. We are all supposed to be impressed by this.

        I'm confused.
        Yes. I agree you are.

        You deny that Christians have councils
        No I do not.

        It seems all you can do is make up falsehoods in your head and argue against those.

        , and then argue that those who have councils cherry pick them.
        You do. Catholics do NOT follow and obey everything those councils produced and taught.

        Cherry picked.

        ...
        "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

          Sure! When you show me the phrase "Triune God" or even "Trinity".
          Sorry, when you answer my question I'll be glad to answer yours.
          We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
            As many of you are aware, most Christians of all churches and communities recognize at least one Church council, that of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts.
            And as many of you probably know, there have been more since that time.

            Of all of these church councils, which is the last council you accept as teaching orthodox Christianity?
            And why do you reject the succeeding council, whatever that may be?
            The Council of Jerusalem in Acts, because it's found in God's Written Word. I Pay NO ATTENTION WHATSOEVER to any other "church councils", since I find no spiritual value in any of 'em.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Atemi View Post

              That is not a question ANY Christ follower needs to address.

              Christ followers follow the Word of God, not the debates and votes of men.
              They're the debates and votes of Christian men, Atemi. Just like they were in Jerusalem.


              Originally posted by Atemi
              I never said any such thing.

              You really need to do much better than falsehoods about people if you want anyone to take you seriously.
              Atemi, you literally said such a thing. It was the first thing you said in the thread:

              Originally posted by Atemi
              Nah. I do not recognize councils of men. I recognize the Word of God. In the case of Jerusalem, the latter confirmed the former.
              You gotta pay attention to what you're saying, bud.

              Originally posted by Atemi
              In following the Word of God.
              Yes, following the Word of God means following the Bishops, Elders and Deacons.

              Originally posted by Atemi
              Church leaders are not called on to determine truth, but instead are called on to teach the Word of God as given.

              Christ followers already have the truth.

              Cult leaders and con artists insist they should determine the truth for everyone else.

              LOL.
              Atemi, how can one teach the Word of God as its given without determining truth? It's literally all Paul did.


              Originally posted by Atemi
              Catholics already reject MUCH of those same councils.

              The hypocrisy of it all IS dumb.
              Individual Catholics might, but the Church doesn't and the majority don't. I do find it amusing that you need to scream "hypocrisy!!!" as loud as possible no matter what, even when you don't have proof or a logical position to stand on.

              We end up with cult like systems like Mormonism and JWs and Roman Catholicism because of following the debates and councils of men and not the Word of God.
              The Watchtower certainly is a cult. Mormons? False, non-Christian religion, but mostly not a cult. But here's the thing---none of them were made from the Christian councils.

              Look, Atemi, you gotta do better than that. Try to give me some historical examples of Christians not gathering together in Councils to determine how the Church should act or what it should believe. As we've shown you already, you don't have a biblical argument, so you might as well draw from history.

              Originally posted by Atemi
              What all those above also have in common is that they all teach we must follow their leaders in everything they determine to be true. The cult mind is the same across the lot of them.
              Actually, the Watchtower and Mormons both argue that their followers must follow their mangled Scriptures. More than anything else, they're a "Scripture only" group.

              The Watchtower literally sprung from Protestant churches and argued that it could the interpret the Bible alone. The Mormons saw the rest of the Christian Churches and communities and made its own religion out of the diaspora. Look, I understand that you don't have a clue about Catholicism, but you at least gotta understand the fruits of your church's labour.

              Originally posted by Atemi
              And they somehow turned their world upside down for Jesus Christ without a single declaration of all your late arriving councils.

              If you cannot do the math, that is too bad. I can.
              Well, yes, they did. They did with the Council of Jerusalem, the Council of Nicea, the Council of Ephesus, I mean, there's a lot.
              Now, if you want to give me any historical evidence contrary to it, I'll be waiting.


              Originally posted by Atemi
              Yes. I agree you are.
              Haha that's cute, you can't come up with a reasonable answer so you go to insults. That's the Christian way that St. Peter teaches!
              Stop being hypocritical. If you're a Christ follower, act like one.

              No I do not.

              It seems all you can do is make up falsehoods in your head and argue against those.
              Okay, so you are saying the Christians have had councils throughout the past two millennia?


              You do. Catholics do NOT follow and obey everything those councils produced and taught.

              Cherry picked.[/QUOTE]

              Statements are boring without evidence. So cough it up.
              “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by nan View Post

                Sorry, when you answer my question I'll be glad to answer yours.
                So we're at an impasse! But you see my point. We don't need the exact word to understand the Truth. We infer from what the Bible says. The Bible says that Mary gave birth to Jesus, Jesus is God, and therefore Mary gave birth to God.

                In the same way, The Bible says that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, so there is one God in Three--the Triune God.
                “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                  The Council of Jerusalem in Acts, because it's found in God's Written Word. I Pay NO ATTENTION WHATSOEVER to any other "church councils", since I find no spiritual value in any of 'em.
                  So you don't pay attention to any pastors, bible scholars, or any of that either, right? Because they're not in God's word and you don't find spiritual value in them.

                  Or, if you're reasonable, you'll realize that the Church had the first Council and continued to do so. Because that's what happened.
                  “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

                    So you don't pay attention to any pastors, bible scholars, or any of that either, right?
                    Wrong. With a knowledge of The BIBLE text, I can approach Pastors, teachers, prophets, or Biblical scholars knowledgibly, and derive GREAT Spiritual value.

                    Or, if you're reasonable, you'll realize that the Church had the first Council and continued to do so. Because that's what happened.
                    All I see in the Catholic councils (from my knowledge of the Bible itself) is a darkening council as pagan thoughts, and practices started to CORRUPT the church, and the pagan and heretical practices began working their way into Catholic theology with the approval of their "Pope" and their "Magisterium". SO WHY IN THE WORLD would I bother with any of 'em????
                    Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 07-11-18, 06:54 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      All I see in the Catholic councils is a darkening council as pagan thoughts, and practices started to CORRUPT the church, and the pagan and heretical practices began working their way into Catholic theology with the approval of their "Pope" and their "Magisterium". SO WHY IN THE WORLD would I bother with any or 'em????
                      Can you show me where these councils had "Pagan thoughts"? Which council decisions are you referring to?
                      If you're making these claims, clearly you've read the documents or even summaries of them.
                      “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

                        So we're at an impasse! But you see my point. We don't need the exact word to understand the Truth. We infer from what the Bible says. The Bible says that Mary gave birth to Jesus, Jesus is God, and therefore Mary gave birth to God.

                        In the same way, The Bible says that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, so there is one God in Three--the Triune God.
                        Sorry, Geralt, but you made a claim that Mary is the mother of God and she carried God in her womb. I asked you for proof of this from God's word which you cannot provide. You are dancing your way through another post for which you have no scriptural defense.

                        Why do you make such allegations if you cannot prove them?
                        We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

                          Can you show me where these councils had "Pagan thoughts"? Which council decisions are you referring to?
                          If you're making these claims, clearly you've read the documents or even summaries of them.
                          I don't have to - the fact the heretical teachings are part and parcel of Catholic theology/practice attests to the corruption of the historical leadership that put them there - stupidity like the "Mary thing", Purgatorial sanctification, salvation by Belief AND Works, Relics, Ikons, the Eucharest travesty, praying to "Saints", etc.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by nan View Post

                            Sorry, Geralt, but you made a claim that Mary is the mother of God and she carried God in her womb. I asked you for proof of this from God's word which you cannot provide. You are dancing your way through another post for which you have no scriptural defense.

                            Why do you make such allegations if you cannot prove them?
                            Not at all. Again, I'm arguing that you cannot ask me for the exact words in Scripture, when we already use specific terminology and developed theology that we see inferred from Scripture.
                            You're ignoring the evidence.

                            Please respond to my previous post as the proof that I've given you. Scripturally, Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Him.
                            “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                              I don't have to - the fact the heretical teachings are part and parcel of Catholic theology/practice attests to the corruption of the historical leadership that put them there - stupidity like the "Mary thing", Purgatorial sanctification, salvation by Belief AND Works, Relics, Ikons, the Eucharest travesty, praying to "Saints", etc.
                              But that's the thing, those councils don't touch on Mary, Purgatory, or Relics, etc. No one argued with those things because they accepted them as part of the Christian faith. They DID argue with the divinity of Christ, which was answered with the Councils of Nicea, Ephesus and so on.

                              So again, if you're unfamiliar with the Councils, I would highly recommend that you look at them for yourself.
                              CARM even has a list!

                              https://carm.org/what-are-the-dates-...hurch-councils
                              “Have Jesus always for your patron, His Cross for a mast on which you must spread your resolutions as a sail. Your anchor shall be a profound confidence in Him, and you shall sail prosperously.” ― St. Francis de Sales

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by nan View Post

                                Sorry, Geralt, but you made a claim that Mary is the mother of God and she carried God in her womb. I asked you for proof of this from God's word which you cannot provide. You are dancing your way through another post for which you have no scriptural defense.

                                Why do you make such allegations if you cannot prove them?
                                Standard Catholic "reasoning". Jesus is GOD incarnate - Jesus was born of MARY - so Mary is "God's Mother" - VIOLA!!!! we've cobbled a NEW TITLE together for our substitute primary prayer contact.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X