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Infallible interpretation of verses

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  • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

    Interesting you do not even try to make a reasonable argument regarding those accusations. You do not stand up for your teachers and why

    they are reliable? I would do so if you attacked my teachers, many of which are Catholic experts. I guess you cannot. Nothing new.

    JohnR
    The Apostles and their successors are reliable, John. It's those like yourself who broke away on your own, founding your own theologies, that need to defend your teachers and yourselves.

    If Catholic experts were truly your teachers, you'd be Catholic.
    Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

      These are also in the catechism where you can see church councils, papal encyclicals, ecf writings.... in the footnotes to back it up.
      The question is if they really back anything up? If an apostle never intends to back up a dogma in the CCC what good is it. Fact is your church

      never claims that the apostle mentioned actually does back up that dogma. Does that bother you at all?

      "In terms of what we might call the literal sense of Scripture,
      ie, what a verse meant when it was first written, it is doubtful
      that the Roman Catholic Church has ever defined the meaning of
      any passage. The church has defined that some ot its doctrines
      are related to scriptural passages, but not necessarily that
      those doctrines were in the minds of the people who wrote the
      passages. Thus, a conflict between private interpretation and
      church doctrine based on scripture is really not relevant to the
      type of commentary help That I have been describing.
      I remember with sad amusement the observation made by a reviewer
      in a popular evaluation of a long commentary I had done. He stated
      he was grateful that he did not have to bother with my opinions
      or those of others since he preached only what the Catholic
      Church taught about this particular book. Since the church had never
      interpreted the literal meaning of any passage in that book,
      I wondered exactly what he found to preach. What he really meant,
      I am sure, is that he preached the opinions about the book that
      he had been taught when he was in the seminary, and he did not
      want to bother seeing whether those opinions still represented where
      most scholars stood today."
      Raymond Brown, Q15 - 101 Questions and Answers to the Bible.
      Page 25. Imprimatur

      JohnR



      Comment


      • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

        This is your argument? Do you disagree with Fr. Brown or not? Do you really think those verses in the CCC support those dogmas taught by your CCC and if they

        were in the apostles mind when he wrote those verses? He plainly says your church does not interpret scripture as to the intent of the Apostle.. Do you accept that?

        If that Arch Bishop + Official Catholic Censor gives that Imprimatur and Ok to publish does that mean your church might actually interpret scripture as to the apostles intent anyway?

        Do you have an opinion other than explaining the Imprimatur.?

        I am not trying to fool you. I am trying to educate you on what your church teaches. Do you think the Imprimatur means nothing?

        Imprimatur definition from Wikopedia
        In the Catholic Church an imprimatur is an official declaration by a Church
        authority that a book or other printed work may be published.[1][2] Since,
        according to canon law, this permission must be preceded by a declaration
        (known as a nihil obstat) by a person charged with the duties of a censor
        that the work contains nothing damaging to faith or morals,[3] the bishop's
        authorization of publication is implicitly a public declaration that nothing
        offensive to Catholic teaching on faith and morals has been found in it. The
        imprimatur is not an endorsement by the bishop of the contents of a book, not
        even of the religious opinions expressed in it, being merely a declaration
        about what is not in the book.[4] In the published work, the imprimatur is
        sometimes accompanied by a declaration of the following tenor:

        .[6] The local ordinary consults someone whom he considers competent to give a
        judgment and, if that person gives the nihil obstat ("nothing forbids") the
        local ordinary grants the imprimatur ("let it be printed").

        "Nothing offensive to Catholic teaching on faith and morals. "

        Fr. Brown is specifically speaking of what your church teaches and does not teach. The Imprimatur
        must mean something.


        JohnR
        Do you even bother to read what you quote?

        "The imprimatur is not an endorsement by the bishop of the contents of a book, not
        even of the religious opinions expressed in it, being merely a declaration
        about what is not in the book."

        This is what you have been told repeatedly. Imprimatur is negative assurance.

        Don't claim to be teaching us what the Church teaches when you can't even accurately relay a Wikipedia entry.
        Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post

          The Apostles and their successors are reliable, John. It's those like yourself who broke away on your own, founding your own theologies, that need to defend your teachers and yourselves.

          If Catholic experts were truly your teachers, you'd be Catholic.
          I never broke on my own. I follow the teachings of Jesus. My Catholic teachers teach different from you. You and your bad attitude

          about them is a fine reason not to be like you. I respect them . You do not. Your attitude repels me from the Catholic church

          because this seems to be how the common Catholic church teaches Catholics, to distrust their experts. You think I would ever want my

          family taught (or non-taught) like that?

          You do not respect the experts of your Church nor the Imprimatur which should allow you to trust them but does not.

          I am sure other Catholics watch you and are likewise repelled. You make my case.

          JohnR
          Last edited by highrigger; 07-21-18, 01:09 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

            I never broke on my own. I follow the teachings of Jesus. My Catholic teachers teach different from you. You and your bad attitude about them is a fine reason not to be

            like you. I respect them . You do not. Your attitude repels me from the Catholic church. You do not even respect the experts of your Church nor the Imprimatur

            which should allow you to trust them but does not. I am sure other Catholics watch you and are likewise repelled. You make my case.

            JohnR
            The Church of England broke communion with the Church of Rome.

            Your denomination broke from the Church of England.

            You individually espouse beliefs that are fundamentally contrary to Methodism, while still calling yourself a Methodist.

            So yes, you broke away from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church three times over.
            Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

            Comment


            • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

              I never broke on my own. I follow the teachings of Jesus. My Catholic teachers teach different from you. You and your bad attitude

              about them is a fine reason not to be like you. I respect them . You do not. Your attitude repels me from the Catholic church.

              You do not even respect the experts of your Church nor the Imprimatur which should allow you to trust them but does not.

              I am sure other Catholics watch you and are likewise repelled. You make my case.

              JohnR
              Show us a teaching biblical or catechism that authority is from "EXPERTS",

              Rather then the Bishops and magisterium.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

                I have explained the imprimatur/nihil to him so many times but it doesn't phase him one bit. He continues to make false claims.
                I understand. You think the Catholic expert is not telling the truth and somehow fooled the official Catholic censor and arch bishop to agree

                his teachings do not affect Catholic faith. He plainly said that the apostles verses in your CCC do not necessarily mean the apostle accepts

                those dogmas in the CCC. You agree? Or even if you disagree, the experts opinion has no affect on Catholic faith?

                I never made a false claim. I simply quote the Catholic expert. Do you think HE made a false claim?

                JohnR

                Comment



                • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post
                  Let us take this verse, the gift of infallibility as promised by Jesus. Are you saying when guided by the truth-giving Spirit, Jesus is lying.

                  john 16: 13 It will be for him, the truth-giving Spirit, when he comes, to guide you into all truth. He will not utter a message of his own; he will utter the message that has been given to him; and he will make plain to you what is still to come.
                  The Holy Spirit is infallible. Humans are not.
                  "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                  The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Curious Joe View Post
                    The Church of England broke communion with the Church of Rome.

                    Your denomination broke from the Church of England.

                    You individually espouse beliefs that are fundamentally contrary to Methodism, while still calling yourself a Methodist.

                    So yes, you broke away from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church three times over.
                    according to the false beliefs of the RCC. since it is false, anyone breaking away from it, does a good thing.



                    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mica View Post
                      according to the false beliefs of the RCC. since it is false, anyone breaking away from it, does a good thing.
                      only difference between you and JohnR is that you are still Catholic, and always will be
                      Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mica View Post

                        The Holy Spirit is infallible. Humans are not.
                        changing your tune?

                        Originally posted by mica View Post
                        yes, one can infallibly know some things. Those confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
                        Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                          are you saying your church does not have a list?
                          I thought I explained. My church does not have a list of what is essential to be a Christian. We must accept Jesus Christ s our Lord and savior.

                          To be a Methodist we must participate with our prayers, our presence and our service. That is about it.

                          I am glad we do not have a CCC with all those ESSENTIAL things that simply confuse poor Catholics.

                          JohnR

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

                            They have no need for such a list because it is left up to each individual to decide what the Bible means.
                            We have bible studies and the teacher teaches the what is in our official Methodist discipline found on the web.

                            No one must agree. We do not have a list of essentials. We respect the opinions of all. That is what makes our bible

                            studies so much fun and instructional. We can all chime in with our opinions and scripture verses. We really learn that

                            way and enjoy. No one lays down the Law. The opinions of all are respected. You are free to attend and explain your own opinions.

                            See you there some day.

                            JohnR

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                              These are also in the catechism where you can see church councils, papal encyclicals, ecf writings.... in the footnotes to back it up.
                              I notice that SAINT Augustine who tortured heretics is also quoted in there a lot. I don't read a thing he said. I don't think that torturing heretics is very Holy.

                              Do you?

                              JohnR

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

                                I notice that SAINT Augustine who tortured heretics is also quoted in there a lot. I don't read a thing he said. I don't think that torturing heretics is very Holy.

                                Do you?

                                JohnR
                                We're all still waiting for the evidence that Saint Augustine tortured anyone. When can we expect that, John?
                                Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance! Grant victory to Your church over evil, and protect Your people by Your Cross! [source: Troparion of the Holy Cross (Byzantine-Ruthenian usage)]

                                Comment

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