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Apostasy

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  • Geralt_De_Sales
    started a topic Apostasy

    Apostasy

    It's a simple question: When did the Christian Church apostatize and introduce the pagan beliefs that became Catholicism?

  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


    When is difficult to determine, but it is a fact
    that pagan beliefs like papal infallibility were introduced by Rome.

    Infallibility requires omniscience !!!!


    The authors of scripture were instructed
    by the Omniscient One (Is 50:4, Gal 1:12).

    At no stage did any foundational prophet or apostle claim to be infallible.


    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Infallibility does not require omniscience, just the Holy Spirit.
    It is either a reliance on the Holy Spirit
    or an absurd declaration of infallibility.

    Those mastered by Frankie chose to believe the latter.

    Leave a comment:


  • highrigger
    replied
    Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

    My experience of reading your posts is that you subscribe to a sort of Christian atheism. Your 'experts' only include those whose writings don't infringe on that philosophy. What Catholics accept is that there is much that must be accepted by faith and that Jesus ordained a Church that through a collegial body united in the Holy Seat of Peter, has the authority to teach on matters of faith and morals according the the Fathers Will.

    The Protest movement may have inspired people to reject the Apostolic and universal Church 500 years ago... but for us now, seeing the garish mis matches of conflicting nonCC beliefs out there all with their own 'experts'.... I simply have no faith in that system at all.
    You make up things. Peter never sat on the Seat of Peter and your CCC does not teach that he did. Prove me wrong.

    I accept the Apostolic and Universal Church. My church recites the Apostles Creed every Sunday. "I believe in the holy catholic church"

    Your insults are not an argument. Nothing wrong in finding the truth of history. I cannot understand why you object to those Catholic experts who provide

    true Christian history and have the Imprimatur proving that your church does not object. To teach truthfully is NOT atheism. To teach that your invented dogmas

    are false is NOT atheism. There is no such thing as Christian atheism. That is silly. You think your church has the right to make up truth. That is why we disagree.

    You don't have to call names. If you think something is true then prove it. Don't ask others to believe your myths and call it faith. Faith is to believe Jesus

    when He tells you that you are forgiven when you repent. Your church teaches opposite by inventing Purgatory to mean ones sins are NOT all forgiven.

    All you have to do is read the teachings of Jesus and believe Him, but you will not study the Bible and you condemn anyone who does not see it your way.

    JohnR

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by highrigger View Post

    In the early days of the Roman Church when they were trying to attract the pagans to join.


    Ancient History
    Charles Alexander Robinson, Jr. page 683

    "To take a more important example, in accepting the new faith many
    converted pagans felt that the infinite God was too great and too
    distant to pray to directly. There grew up, accordingly, the practice
    of praying for the intercession of the saints - certain great and good
    christians who, having lived especially pure lives, were now
    with God. It was through the help of the saints that men hoped to
    receive an answer to their prayers. Statues of the saints and of
    Christ and the Virgin were set up inthe churches, and to them the
    faithful prayed. By the use of such simple means the Church was able
    to get and retain a hold on those people to whom some outward symbol
    seemed essential."

    Backgrounds of Early Christianity
    Everett Ferguson, p173

    "Features of ancient Roman and Greek religion may be discerned in the
    respective development of Catholic and Orthodox Christianity; in the
    former the legal and judicial precision, organizational development,
    priestly monopoly, and emphasis on rites and correct formulas; in the
    latter a larger place for vows and voluntary piety by the populace
    and speculative interest in doctrines."

    Everett Ferguson, Backgrounds of Early Christianity, p 176

    "(9) Magic was another popular expression of human relations with the
    powers of the universe. Although moderns distinguish magic from
    the spirit of religion, the ancients did not do so. superstition,
    sorcery, use of amulets, the magical power of statues, formulas
    for healing and cursing, and private divination were all on the increase
    in late antiquity."


    JohnR
    Hmm, I'll have to read those books in full. Still working on getting the last one!

    Leave a comment:


  • highrigger
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
    It's a simple question: When did the Christian Church apostatize and introduce the pagan beliefs that became Catholicism?
    In the early days of the Roman Church when they were trying to attract the pagans to join.


    Ancient History
    Charles Alexander Robinson, Jr. page 683

    "To take a more important example, in accepting the new faith many
    converted pagans felt that the infinite God was too great and too
    distant to pray to directly. There grew up, accordingly, the practice
    of praying for the intercession of the saints - certain great and good
    christians who, having lived especially pure lives, were now
    with God. It was through the help of the saints that men hoped to
    receive an answer to their prayers. Statues of the saints and of
    Christ and the Virgin were set up inthe churches, and to them the
    faithful prayed. By the use of such simple means the Church was able
    to get and retain a hold on those people to whom some outward symbol
    seemed essential."

    Backgrounds of Early Christianity
    Everett Ferguson, p173

    "Features of ancient Roman and Greek religion may be discerned in the
    respective development of Catholic and Orthodox Christianity; in the
    former the legal and judicial precision, organizational development,
    priestly monopoly, and emphasis on rites and correct formulas; in the
    latter a larger place for vows and voluntary piety by the populace
    and speculative interest in doctrines."

    Everett Ferguson, Backgrounds of Early Christianity, p 176

    "(9) Magic was another popular expression of human relations with the
    powers of the universe. Although moderns distinguish magic from
    the spirit of religion, the ancients did not do so. superstition,
    sorcery, use of amulets, the magical power of statues, formulas
    for healing and cursing, and private divination were all on the increase
    in late antiquity."


    JohnR

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


    When is difficult to determine, but it is a fact
    that pagan beliefs like papal infallibility were introduced by Rome.

    Infallibility requires omniscience !!!!


    The authors of scripture were instructed
    by the Omniscient One (Is 50:4, Gal 1:12).

    At no stage did any foundational prophet or apostle claim to be infallible.

    Infallibility does not require omniscience, just the Holy Spirit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Iakobos
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
    It's a simple question: When did the Christian Church apostatize and introduce the pagan beliefs that became Catholicism?
    The Church never did, in fact the Christian Church redeemed those things that were actually Christian in pagan beliefs that were based on the reality of the Holy Trinity and revealed Christ Jesus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied

    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


    When is difficult to determine, but it is a fact
    that pagan beliefs like papal infallibility were introduced by Rome.

    Infallibility requires omniscience !!!!



    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Not at all, the Scripture writers wrote inerrant Scriptures but they didn't need omniscience.
    The authors of scripture were instructed
    by the Omniscient One (Is 50:4, Gal 1:12).

    At no stage did any foundational prophet or apostle claim to be infallible.


    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

    When is difficult to determine, but it is a fact
    that pagan beliefs like papal infallibility were introduced by Rome.

    Infallibility requires omniscience !!!!
    Not at all, the Scripture writers wrote inerrant Scriptures but they didn't need omniscience.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by highrigger View Post

    They are the experts in the field. Some are Catholics. But the point is that the experts in the field can help us know history and what the bible means.

    Otherwise we are left with our mere opinions. That is a good way to go wrong. Control of all those manuscripts is called a library. That does not mean

    the librarian understands it all. For that one needs experts. I think Catholics prefers others than experts so they can hear their own false opinions.

    JohnR
    My experience of reading your posts is that you subscribe to a sort of Christian atheism. Your 'experts' only include those whose writings don't infringe on that philosophy. What Catholics accept is that there is much that must be accepted by faith and that Jesus ordained a Church that through a collegial body united in the Holy Seat of Peter, has the authority to teach on matters of faith and morals according the the Fathers Will.

    The Protest movement may have inspired people to reject the Apostolic and universal Church 500 years ago... but for us now, seeing the garish mis matches of conflicting nonCC beliefs out there all with their own 'experts'.... I simply have no faith in that system at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
    It's a simple question: When did the Christian Church apostatize and introduce the pagan beliefs that became Catholicism?
    When is difficult to determine, but it is a fact
    that pagan beliefs like papal infallibility were introduced by Rome.

    Infallibility requires omniscience !!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • highrigger
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Ah yes, Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

    Question! Have you seen the rest of what the CCEL archives? A lot of the Christian writings by the early Church throughout those years. I would recommend reading those too.
    "Know that the interests of the Holy See, and those of your crown, make it a duty to exterminate
    the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare proclaim principles of equality; they maintain
    that all Christians are brethren, and that God has not given to privileged men the right of ruling the
    nations; they hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery; they call the people to liberty,
    that is to the annihilation of kings and priests. While there is still time, then, turn your
    forces against Bohemia; burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing can be more agreeable
    to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites."
    - Pope Martin V (1417-1431) in 1429 to the King of Poland

    This one should be in your archives.

    JohnR

    Leave a comment:


  • highrigger
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Surely, you can point to a specific time where a group truly apostatized, even if it's a century.
    My argument to you, then, is where was Christianity during these times? Where were their writers, their leaders, any evidence of their existence by your measure?
    There have been many Christian churches throughout history besides the Catholic Church. Your church could not persecute them all out of existence.


    Caesar And Christ, Will Durant p 604-5

    "From these basic tenets, the followers of Christ, in the first three centuries
    divided into a hundred creeds."

    JohnR

    Leave a comment:


  • highrigger
    replied
    Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

    You do realise that the Catholic Church preserves the bulk of 2000 years of treatises, manuscripts, histories and a sound scholarly tradition of theology to guard the fundamentals, don't you? The Church is a collegial body like the Apostles were that ensured that the Church didn't lose it's 'universality'. Why do you think that your opinions and the 'experts' you choose to support them are a universal authority?
    They are the experts in the field. Some are Catholics. But the point is that the experts in the field can help us know history and what the bible means.

    Otherwise we are left with our mere opinions. That is a good way to go wrong. Control of all those manuscripts is called a library. That does not mean

    the librarian understands it all. For that one needs experts. I think Catholics prefers others than experts so they can hear their own false opinions.

    JohnR

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by highrigger View Post

    So lets deal with the facts. Lets consider the opinion of the experts and historians. I do not see that attitude from Catholics on this forum.

    How often to you see them quoting experts or historians as I do over and over. They even demean their own Catholic experts.

    Always asking us to prove that scripture is an authority. Claiming they are the only true church. No support from any historian as to how

    that could be. Only personal uninformed opinions

    JohnR
    You do realise that the Catholic Church preserves the bulk of 2000 years of treatises, manuscripts, histories and a sound scholarly tradition of theology to guard the fundamentals, don't you? The Church is a collegial body like the Apostles were that ensured that the Church didn't lose it's 'universality'. Why do you think that your opinions and the 'experts' you choose to support them are a universal authority?

    Leave a comment:

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