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one person two natures

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  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by utilyan View Post

    "Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father"

    Where is this written?

    I could hear the toilet flush when I read this. Not even biblical.
    ....
    Isaiah 53:

    Leave a comment:


  • utilyan
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    first: we don't agree on the nature of Atonement

    but, my answers are
    Did God withdraw from Jesus?
    No
    The Trinity was never broken

    Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?
    anthropomorphically , yes
    At that moment : Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father
    "Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father"

    Where is this written?

    I could hear the toilet flush when I read this. Not even biblical.

    Fits perfect with pagan theology of killing children to appease angry god's wrath.

    You've made a god who doesn't even forgive it all has to be paid a debt one way or another.

    You have to have Jesus in hell for eternity to even be consistent.


    Our Father always loves Jesus and always loves you.


    2 Corinthians 5

    19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


    I see Christ reconciling the world to GOD.

    Show us the scripture for Christ reconciling GOD to the world.


    God never needed a change of heart, We did.

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

    The Divine nature cannot die therefore the person of Jesus Christ cannot die.

    I hope you agree this is false.
    yes: that statement is false ,
    BECAUSE Jesus had human flesh and bone from his human: and that is what died




    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Rome
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post



    because "Everything that is true about the Divine nature is true about the person of Jesus Christ."
    The Divine nature cannot die therefore the person of Jesus Christ cannot die.

    I hope you agree this is false.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howie
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post




    my answers are
    Did God withdraw from Jesus?
    No
    The Trinity was never broken

    Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?
    anthropomorphically , yes
    At that moment : Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father


    I was using withdraw: to mean "to remove oneself from participation "
    and forsake to mean "renounce"
    https://www.merriam-webster.com

    renouncing is a form of participation

    where was my heresy?
    There's nothing heretical in what you're saying. CatholicScripture's only apologetic is inaccurate "well poisoning."

    Leave a comment:


  • Howie
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    i do NOT have to reconsider a mis-charatezation of what I am saying

    "There is one God divided among the 3 Persons"
    I don't believe that, I never said that

    bye
    Tester, as I've always said, it is the Catholics who do not understand the incarnation; superstition keeps them from asking questions while ignorance of the subject keeps them from answering your questions.

    It's quite clear to me as an observer.

    Now I wait for CatholicScripture to poison the well concerning me...

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomas View Post

    Read for yourself what the Catechism says. And also read again my last comment on "mystery."
    sure it a mystery: there are many mysteries when dealing wit the sublet of God
    .
    That is not mean there are not right and wrong views.

    Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post "Jesus didn't have complete omniscience..."

    is wrong

    The correct statement is Jesus did have complete omniscience..

    because "Everything that is true about the Divine nature is true about the person of Jesus Christ."

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post


    Now watch tester espouse heresy once again.
    the only heresy I see is SOME Catholics denying the truth that

    The divine nature of Jesus Christ has no human attributes
    the human nature of Jesus Christ has no divine attributes

    it is an error to ascribe Divine attributes to the human nature of Jesus Christ
    it is an error to ascribe human attributes to the Divine nature of Jesus Christ

    Two natures eternally together in The One Person of Jesus Christ
    Two natures eternally distinct in The One Person of Jesus Christ

    There is no co-mingling of attributes between the natures

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied



    Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post

    Again tester furnishes the right sound bite (not denying the hypostatic union)

    but ask him, Tester in Matthew 27:46

    Did God withdraw from Jesus? Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?

    Now watch tester espouse heresy once again.
    my answers are
    Did God withdraw from Jesus?
    No
    The Trinity was never broken

    Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?
    anthropomorphically , yes
    At that moment : Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father
    Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post

    In this thread https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...us#post4993021 you claimed God forsook Jesus, so which is it? Did you change positions recently?
    I was using withdraw: to mean "to remove oneself from participation "
    and forsake to mean "renounce"
    https://www.merriam-webster.com

    renouncing is a form of participation

    where was my heresy?
    Last edited by tester; 07-14-18, 04:58 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CatholicScripture
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    first: we don't agree on the nature of Atonement

    my answers are
    Did God withdraw from Jesus?
    No
    The Trinity was never broken

    Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?
    anthropomorphically , yes
    At that moment : Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father
    In this thread https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...us#post4993021 you claimed God forsook Jesus, so which is it? Did you change positions recently?

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomas View Post

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the are distinct in the personhood" - they are distinct, and there are three persons - but the Church teaches that the three Persons are equally God, and are distinct as Mark wrote, "only in the relationship to one another." The Catechism section on the teaching is:



    [COLOR=#0000FF]253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, ...
    i meant to say ""the are distinct in their personhood""

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post

    Again tester furnishes the right sound bite (not denying the hypostatic union)

    but ask him, Tester in Matthew 27:46



    Did God withdraw from Jesus? Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?

    Now watch tester espouse heresy once again.
    first: we don't agree on the nature of Atonement

    but, my answers are
    Did God withdraw from Jesus?
    No
    The Trinity was never broken

    Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?
    anthropomorphically , yes
    At that moment : Jesus was not under the loving-kindness of the Father

    Leave a comment:


  • Iakobos
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomas View Post

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the are distinct in the personhood" - they are distinct, and there are three persons - but the Church teaches that the three Persons are equally God, and are distinct as Mark wrote, "only in the relationship to one another." The Catechism section on the teaching is:

    The dogma of the Holy Trinity

    253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.<Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421> The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.”<Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26> In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”<Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804>

    254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.”<Fides Damasi: DS 71> “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.”<Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25> They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.”<Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804> The divine Unity is Triune.

    255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.”<Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528> Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.”<Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330> “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”<Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331>



    The teaching is truly beautiful and amazing - and He made us in His image and likeness! What a mystery.
    The Holy Trinity

    The Three Divine Persons

    In Orthodox terminology the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are called three divine persons. Person is defined here simply as the subject of existence and lifehypostasis in the traditional church language.

    As the being, essence or nature of a reality answers the question what?, the person of a reality answers the question which one? or who? Thus, when we ask What is God? we answer that God is the divine, perfect, eternal, absolute . . . and when we ask Who is God? we answer that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    The saints of the Church have explained this tri-unity of God by using such an example from worldly existence. We see three men. What are they? we ask. They are human beings, we answer. Each is man, possessing the same humanity and the same human nature defined in a certain way: created, temporal, physical, rational, etc. In what they are, the three men are one. But in who they are, they are three, each absolutely unique and distinct from the others. Each man in his own unique way is distinctly a man. One man is not the other, though each man is still human with one and the same human nature and form.

    Turning to God, we may ask in the same way: What is it? In reply we say that it is God defined as absolute perfection: ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever-existing, and eternally the same. We then ask, Who is it?, and we answer that it is the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In who God is, there are three persons who are each absolutely unique and distinct. Each is not the other, though each is still divine with the same divine nature and form. Therefore, while being one in what they are; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are Three in who they are. And because of what and who they arenamely, uncreated, divine personsthey are undivided and perfectly united in their timeless, spaceless, sizeless, shapeless super-essential existence, as well as in their one divine life, knowledge, love, goodness, power, will, action, etc.

    Thus, according to the Orthodox Tradition, it is the mystery of God that there are Three who are divine; Three who live and act by one and the same divine perfection, yet each according to his own personal distinctness and uniqueness. Thus it is said that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each divine with the same divinity, yet each in his own divine way. And as the uncreated divinity has three divine subjects, so each divine action has three divine actors; there are three divine aspects to every action of God, yet the action remains one and the same.

    We discover, therefore, one God the Father Almighty with His one unique Son (Image and Word) and His one Holy Spirit. There is one living God with His one perfect divine Life, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Life. There is one True God with His one divine Truth, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Truth. There is one wise and loving God with His one Wisdom and Love, who is personally the Son, with His one Spirit of Wisdom and Love. The examples could go on indefinitely: the one divine Father personifying every aspect of His divinity in His one divine Son, who is personally activated by His one divine Spirit. We will see the living implications of the Trinity as we survey the activity of God in his actions toward man and the world.

    https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthod...e-holy-trinity

    Leave a comment:


  • CatholicScripture
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    "But if you are then saying..."

    no t saying that

    not denying the hypostatic union
    Again tester furnishes the right sound bite (not denying the hypostatic union)

    but ask him, Tester in Matthew 27:46

    Matthew 27:46 New International Version (NIV)

    46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b]
    Did God withdraw from Jesus? Did God avert His eyes from Jesus?

    Now watch tester espouse heresy once again.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    do you agree with this:


    The doctrine of Communicatio idiomatum, https://carm.org/communicatio-idiomatum

    The communicatio idiomatum finds it source in the incarnation where the Divine Word became flesh in the person of Christ (John 1:1, 14). This means that in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures: divine and human. We call this the Hypostatic Union.

    Yet, we see in the Bible that the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the one person of Christ. In other words, the attributes of both divinity and humanity are both ascribed to the one person of Jesus.
    Therefore, the communicatio idiomatum means "that the properties of both, the human and the divine natures, are now the properties of the person, and are therefore ascribed to the person.

    Again, this means that the one person of Jesus can exhibit attributes of divinity (omnipresence, all-knowing, etc.,) and at the same time exhibit attributes of humanity (eating, walking, learning, growing, etc.).

    The communicatio idiomatum does not mean, however, that anything particular to the divine nature was communicated to the human nature.
    Likewise, it does not mean that anything particular to the human nature was communicated to the divine nature.
    ------------------------

    not a fan of CARM?
    here ya go

    The Catholic encyclopedia
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04169a.htm

    "There is no communicatio idiomatum between the two natures of Christ, or between the Word and the human nature as such or its parts."
    The fundamental error of the Ubiquitists consists in predicating of the human nature or of humanity the properties of the Divine nature. We cannot say that "the Word is the humanity", and still less that "the Word is the soul" or "the body of Christ"."

    how about an ECF
    https://tabletalkmagazine.com/posts/...of-alexandria/

    "however, cannot be ascribed to the other nature. Cyril argued that we do not say that the divine nature can be born, hunger, thirst, suffer, or die. Nor do we say that Christs human nature has existed eternally.

    or
    According to the Council of Chalcedon, the two natures of Christ are inseparably united in the one divine person of the Son of God without confusion, mixture, or change. The divine nature remains truly divine and the human nature remains truly human, each retaining its own attributes. This must be so. If Christs humanity acquires a divine attribute, Jesus is no longer truly human and cannot represent other human beings before God or atone for their sin."

    The Confession of Chalcedon provides a clear statement on the human and divine nature of Christ:
    We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐ ἀ, ἀ, ἀ, ἀ in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (ῆ ), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
    IOW:
    EVERY attribute that is true about the divine nature of Jesus Christ is true about the person of Jesus Christ
    EVERY attribute that is true about the human nature of Jesus Christ is true about the person of Jesus Christ


    however
    it is not true that everything that is true about the person of Jesus Christ is true about both of His natures..
    I'm assuming you do understand that the 5th century construct known as Communicatio Idiomatum is merely the principle or rule of how to communicatethe natures of Christ to His Person. The basic guiding principles are from the fifth session of the Council of Chalcedon which dogmatically declared: “We teach . . . one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, known in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation.”

    The principles of Communicatio Idiomatum generally express the dogmatic in three principles.

    1) "Without confusion" - It is proper to make statements where the 'person' is subject and the descriptions are concrete terms. Certain cautions are advised.

    2) Without change - It is improper to make statements that 'interchange' Divine with the human properties. An example given by Communicatio Idiomatum is "the Divinity is mortal" obviously a false statement.

    3) Without division and without separation - It is improper according to Communicatio Idiomatum to separate the two natures in Christ. We do so when we say "Christ did not die" in the crucifixion. It is true Christ did not die based on His Divine nature, but in so stating we've separated the Divinity of the Person Jesus Christ from the humanity of the Person of Jesus Christ.

    Intuitively we find two things wrong with your syllogism, 1) if we hold the major and minor premises true then the conclusion is logically false; for the premises of "every attribute" demand that all attributes be true in the case of the Divine Person of Jesus Christ and the human person of Jesus Christ contrary to your conclusion which confuses 'persons' with 'natures' 2) More importantly, in dividing the natures of Christ confusion of their natures as Persons then you try to reassemble two persons as one Person with partial natures, i.e. separated natures.

    JoeT

    Leave a comment:

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