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Circumcision vs Roman Catholic Baptism

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  • Circumcision vs Roman Catholic Baptism

    The Jews under the OT taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision. This was a teaching repudiated by the apostle Paul, who taught that though one may be circumcised physically and made part of the visible nation, that did not guarantee a spiritual circumcision or part in God's spiritual kingdom. This is why Paul says that not all Israel (those who are physically circumcised) are true Israel (those who have been circumcised spiritually in their hearts). Paul points out that new life is not the result of a physical rite, but of faith. Abraham was justified and regenerated before circumcision was instituted. Physical circumcision was meant to signify circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Just as the Roman Catholic Church teaches that baptism by water is the means of regeneration and forgiveness of sins. This is simply another error taught by the RCC just the same as that of the Jews under the OT dispensation when they were taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision.
    RC's do know God, but the Bible indicates that it is a knowledge in condemnation, a knowledge enabling them to know things about themselves and the world around them, even though they suppress the truth of God which makes such knowledge possible.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post
    The Jews under the OT taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision. This was a teaching repudiated by the apostle Paul, who taught that though one may be circumcised physically and made part of the visible nation, that did not guarantee a spiritual circumcision or part in God's spiritual kingdom. This is why Paul says that not all Israel (those who are physically circumcised) are true Israel (those who have been circumcised spiritually in their hearts). Paul points out that new life is not the result of a physical rite, but of faith. Abraham was justified and regenerated before circumcision was instituted. Physical circumcision was meant to signify circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Just as the Roman Catholic Church teaches that baptism by water is the means of regeneration and forgiveness of sins. This is simply another error taught by the RCC just the same as that of the Jews under the OT dispensation when they were taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision.
    Rituals never save. That's why Paul didn't whip out a eucharist for the jailor in Acts when he asked what he needed to do to be saved. Nor did he ask for a bucket of water or enroll in rcia or or or...He said believe.

    The diy type of salvation goes all the way back to Cain. God says do it this way, they say nah we'll do it our way.
    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

      Rituals never save. That's why Paul didn't whip out a eucharist for the jailor in Acts when he asked what he needed to do to be saved. Nor did he ask for a bucket of water or enroll in rcia or or or...He said believe.

      The diy type of salvation goes all the way back to Cain. God says do it this way, they say nah we'll do it our way.
      Great points Nondenom! So then, being water baptized in the Roman Catholic Church does nothing more than identify the person with the Roman Catholic Church, just as physical circumcision identified the Jews with the visible nation. So, a person can be physically baptized with water and yet not be baptized spiritually. Roman Catholics seem not to be aware of that spiritual fact.
      RC's do know God, but the Bible indicates that it is a knowledge in condemnation, a knowledge enabling them to know things about themselves and the world around them, even though they suppress the truth of God which makes such knowledge possible.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post

        Great points Nondenom! So then, being water baptized in the Roman Catholic Church does nothing more than identify the person with the Roman Catholic Church, just as physical circumcision identified the Jews with the visible nation. So, a person can be physically baptized with water and yet not be baptized spiritually. Roman Catholics seem not to be aware of that spiritual fact.
        It always amazes me just how blinded they are. When I listen to catholic answers, well as much as I can stomach....I always hear sincere callers lamenting about this or that. They are searching for Jesus but bound to a religion. One female caller just a couple of days ago said she's in a relationship with her bf but still fooling around here and there. Her main question was if she'd been messing around then didn't make it to confession would she go to hell. You're heart just goes out to her because she needs true salvation, not a ball and chain and the legalism of the rcc.
        Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

          It always amazes me just how blinded they are. When I listen to catholic answers, well as much as I can stomach....I always hear sincere callers lamenting about this or that. They are searching for Jesus but bound to a religion. One female caller just a couple of days ago said she's in a relationship with her bf but still fooling around here and there. Her main question was if she'd been messing around then didn't make it to confession would she go to hell. You're heart just goes out to her because she needs true salvation, not a ball and chain and the legalism of the rcc.
          Roman Catholics know absolutely nothing about Spirit baptism of the heart that brings about regeneration and incorporates one into the true, spiritual Church, the body of Christ. And this can never be separated from repentance and faith. The rite of water baptism, without repentance and faith, accomplishes nothing. It does not regenerate and has no special power of itself. Like physical circumcision, water baptism is meant to be a sign and a seal, signifying the uniting of an individual with Christ and identification with his death, burial and resurrection to newness of life in Him.

          In regards to "Catholic Answers," I know just what you mean - it is hard to stomach even one Roman Catholic response. I personally knew of a woman who had a similar problem as you described. This involved a woman, whom I had gone to parochial school with for 8 years, as a child, and her parents were staunch members of the parish church, and they were the overjoyed recipients of the highly prized "Parents of the Year" award, which included a blasphemous promise from the then reigning pope - I'm thinking perhaps it was John XXIII, whereby he proclaimed that both parents of my friend, would go directly to heaven at the moment of their death by order of his papal decree on these "Parents of the Year." As time went on, after we graduated high school, we went our separate ways, but my school friend ended up living a very promiscuous life. We ran in to one another about 6 years after graduation from high school and she told me that she never married, but in fact lived with a man (a traveling salesman) who was married and had children with his wife, and my ex-friend also had 2 children with him. She knew she was living in sin, but she got a special dispensation from the priest at her parents parish church, and he granted her absolution from her sins and told her that as long as she only had sex with this married man, while he was in town and they were living as man and wife, that she would remain sin free as long as she went to confession and confessed her sin within 48 hours of his departure, each and every time they had their adulterous rendezvous. I can't say that I was surprised, because coming from a family with many RC clergy members of all ranks, I have seen the most shocking of things from the "inside." However, it did solidify my beliefs about the RCC - even though the Lord Jesus had not yet called me to Himself out of that cesspool of Roman Catholicism, but I answered His call and I came to know Him and repented of my sins and made Him my Lord and Savior.Praise be to God. Sad to say, I have no idea whatever happened to that ex-friend, but I do pray for her to come to know Jesus Christ as her personal Savior and Lord, and to serve Him only.
          RC's do know God, but the Bible indicates that it is a knowledge in condemnation, a knowledge enabling them to know things about themselves and the world around them, even though they suppress the truth of God which makes such knowledge possible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post

            Roman Catholics know absolutely nothing about Spirit baptism of the heart that brings about regeneration and incorporates one into the true, spiritual Church, the body of Christ. And this can never be separated from repentance and faith. The rite of water baptism, without repentance and faith, accomplishes nothing. It does not regenerate and has no special power of itself. Like physical circumcision, water baptism is meant to be a sign and a seal, signifying the uniting of an individual with Christ and identification with his death, burial and resurrection to newness of life in Him.

            In regards to "Catholic Answers," I know just what you mean - it is hard to stomach even one Roman Catholic response. I personally knew of a woman who had a similar problem as you described. This involved a woman, whom I had gone to parochial school with for 8 years, as a child, and her parents were staunch members of the parish church, and they were the overjoyed recipients of the highly prized "Parents of the Year" award, which included a blasphemous promise from the then reigning pope - I'm thinking perhaps it was John XXIII, whereby he proclaimed that both parents of my friend, would go directly to heaven at the moment of their death by order of his papal decree on these "Parents of the Year." As time went on, after we graduated high school, we went our separate ways, but my school friend ended up living a very promiscuous life. We ran in to one another about 6 years after graduation from high school and she told me that she never married, but in fact lived with a man (a traveling salesman) who was married and had children with his wife, and my ex-friend also had 2 children with him. She knew she was living in sin, but she got a special dispensation from the priest at her parents parish church, and he granted her absolution from her sins and told her that as long as she only had sex with this married man, while he was in town and they were living as man and wife, that she would remain sin free as long as she went to confession and confessed her sin within 48 hours of his departure, each and every time they had their adulterous rendezvous. I can't say that I was surprised, because coming from a family with many RC clergy members of all ranks, I have seen the most shocking of things from the "inside." However, it did solidify my beliefs about the RCC - even though the Lord Jesus had not yet called me to Himself out of that cesspool of Roman Catholicism, but I answered His call and I came to know Him and repented of my sins and made Him my Lord and Savior.Praise be to God. Sad to say, I have no idea whatever happened to that ex-friend, but I do pray for her to come to know Jesus Christ as her personal Savior and Lord, and to serve Him only.
            I see that you enjoy revealing the intricate details of others' sins. In doing so you do remind me of the Pharisee who boasted, "God, I thank you that I am not like other people!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post
              The Jews under the OT taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision. This was a teaching repudiated by the apostle Paul, who taught that though one may be circumcised physically and made part of the visible nation, that did not guarantee a spiritual circumcision or part in God's spiritual kingdom. This is why Paul says that not all Israel (those who are physically circumcised) are true Israel (those who have been circumcised spiritually in their hearts). Paul points out that new life is not the result of a physical rite, but of faith. Abraham was justified and regenerated before circumcision was instituted. Physical circumcision was meant to signify circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Just as the Roman Catholic Church teaches that baptism by water is the means of regeneration and forgiveness of sins. This is simply another error taught by the RCC just the same as that of the Jews under the OT dispensation when they were taught that an individual entered into God's spiritual covenant and became a child of God through the rite of physical circumcision.
              Col2: 11 In him you have been circumcised with a circumcision that was not man’s handiwork. It was effected, not by despoiling the natural body, but by Christ’s circumcision;[4] 12 you, by baptism, have been united with his burial, united, too, with his resurrection, through your faith in that exercise of power by which God raised him from the dead.
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              [4] ‘By Christ’s circumcision’; that is, either the circumcision of our Lord in his infancy, here regarded as mystically efficacious on our behalf, or the spiritual circumcision which he bestows on us by Baptism into his Death. The Greek manuscripts have ‘It was effected by the despoiling of the natural body, by the circumcision of Christ’; it is not clear in what sense.


              Knox Translation Copyright © 2013 Westminster Diocese


              why do you think the early Christians had discussions whether to baptize at 8days old or earlier?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                Col2: 11 In him you have been circumcised with a circumcision that was not man’s handiwork. It was effected, not by despoiling the natural body, but by Christ’s circumcision;[4] 12 you, by baptism, have been united with his burial, united, too, with his resurrection, through your faith in that exercise of power by which God raised him from the dead.
                -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                [4] ‘By Christ’s circumcision’; that is, either the circumcision of our Lord in his infancy, here regarded as mystically efficacious on our behalf, or the spiritual circumcision which he bestows on us by Baptism into his Death. The Greek manuscripts have ‘It was effected by the despoiling of the natural body, by the circumcision of Christ’; it is not clear in what sense.


                Knox Translation Copyright © 2013 Westminster Diocese

                the knox translation is a catholic translation...

                why do you think the early Christians had discussions whether to baptize at 8days old or earlier?
                circumcision without the hands of man... our heart is circumcised by God when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. That's when one is born again.

                water baptism follows that and outwardly shows our death with His burial and our resurrection into new life with Him.

                Col 2: 11 kjv

                11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
                12 buried with Him in baptism, in which also you were raised with Him through the faith of the power of God, who has raised Him from the dead.


                Last edited by mica; 07-13-18, 04:48 AM.
                "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mica View Post
                  circumcision without the hands of man... our heart is circumcised by God when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. That's when one is born again.

                  water baptism follows that and outwardly shows our death with His burial and our resurrection into new life with Him.

                  Col 2: 11 kjv

                  11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
                  12 buried with Him in baptism, in which also you were raised with Him through the faith of the power of God, who has raised Him from the dead.

                  You are changing the words in the Bible....."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he can not enter into the Kingdom of god.." John3. . The verse is very explicit....'born again of water and spirit'. Nothing in the verse says born again by baptism of the Holy Spirit, then followed by baptism of water.

                  And you failed to answer.....why do you think the early Christians had discussions whether to baptize at 8days old or earlier?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                    It always amazes me just how blinded they are. When I listen to catholic answers, well as much as I can stomach....I always hear sincere callers lamenting about this or that. They are searching for Jesus but bound to a religion. One female caller just a couple of days ago said she's in a relationship with her bf but still fooling around here and there. Her main question was if she'd been messing around then didn't make it to confession would she go to hell. You're heart just goes out to her because she needs true salvation, not a ball and chain and the legalism of the rcc.
                    Your heart goes out to her because she doesn't realize that she can continue in sin and still be saved? Hmm.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post
                      Abraham was justified and regenerated before circumcision was instituted.
                      And he was justified when he was circumcised circumcision and he was justified after.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post
                        You are changing the words in the Bible....."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he can not enter into the Kingdom of god.." John3. . The verse is very explicit....'born again of water and spirit'. Nothing in the verse says born again by baptism of the Holy Spirit, then followed by baptism of water.

                        And you failed to answer.....why do you think the early Christians had discussions whether to baptize at 8days old or earlier?
                        who's changing words in the bible? look it up. and don't add words to it.

                        yes, it is explicit... and it doesn't say what you've posted above.



                        Last edited by mica; 07-13-18, 09:05 AM.
                        "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                        The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mark Rome View Post

                          Your heart goes out to her because she doesn't realize that she can continue in sin and still be saved? Hmm.
                          that sounds very catholic.

                          "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                          The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mica View Post
                            circumcision without the hands of man... our heart is circumcised by God when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. That's when one is born again.

                            water baptism follows that and outwardly shows our death with His burial and our resurrection into new life with Him.

                            Col 2: 11 kjv

                            11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
                            12 buried with Him in baptism, in which also you were raised with Him through the faith of the power of God, who has raised Him from the dead.

                            You need to read Acts 9 because Paul didn't receive the Holy Spirit until he was Baptized, several days after his conversion experience on the Road to Damascus.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mica View Post
                              that sounds very catholic.
                              Oh really? Where does the Catechism state that?
                              Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia, Ibi Deus
                              "Where Peter is, there is the Church, there is God."

                              Comment

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