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Not Following Up On The Penance Given

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  • nan
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    And to forgive sins.
    Not at all. While Christians are commanded to have a forgiving spirit, it is only God who can grant absolution for sin. Forgiving one another restores the relationship between brethren, but the sin remains.

    Scripture is very clear that all sin is committed against God alone (Psalm 51:4). God alone exercises the power and authority to grant forgiveness.

    The apostles were given the power to declare whether a sin would be forgiven or not. However, the authority to grant absolution was never given to anyone.


    Leave a comment:


  • nan
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    You can't excommunicate without forgiveness
    Say what?

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

    That was an ecclestical gift to excommunicate
    And to forgive sins. You can't excommunicate without forgiveness, otherwise the gift of excommunication is a curse. An act of evil.

    Leave a comment:


  • Open Heart
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

    When you sin (I know that as hardly ever do you ever confess it immediately to God? If you do is it forgiven or does it have to be forgiven by a priest to be valid?
    Actually, I confess it as soon as my conscience pricks me. Also once a day, I review the last 24 hours with the Lord, and he's pretty strict with me about what I've done. I'll repent right then and there even of the smallest little things. I find that this daily time with the Lord works very well with keeping my venial sins under control -- I've made a lot of progress over the years, though there is still room for improvement. If it is a mortal sin, I am obligated to confess it to a priest. An act of perfect contrition makes such a priestly confession unnecessary, but I'd rather cover all my bases. I've found that as I've grown in the Lord, mortal sins have become once in a blue moon. I can't remember the last one. I still go to confession before Easter and Christmas just to stay in the habit. Every Catholic is absolutely obligated to confess at least once a year regardless of the state of their soul.

    Calsgal -- don't think that I'm saying I have a halo over my head. I've done some pretty awful things in my past. God is gracious. And on such occasions, confession has been very helpful to me in my repentance. I have needed to admit it aloud, to take it out of secrecy. I have needed the counsel. I have needed to cry, and I just don't do that when it's all in my own head. I have needed practical things to do to set me back on the right path. And by golly, with my guilty conscience, I have needed the assurance that my sins were forgiven.
    Last edited by Open Heart; 07-20-18, 05:41 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • nan
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

    Do you have a NT example of the apostles forgiving or refusing to forgive sin ?
    Got that iced tea ready, calsgal. Relax. It's gonna be a while ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by Iakobos View Post

    No, it is not a procedure to keep control. It is in fact a prescription for a true believer to follow to aid them in overcoming a sinful passion or other bondage.
    Do you have a NT example of the apostles forgiving or refusing to forgive sin ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

    It depends on what was going on.

    If you intended on completing the penance at the time it was given, then the absolution was valid. However, it is still a problem that the penance is not completed, and needs to be mentioned the next time one is in the confessional.

    One should ask one's self, Why did I not do the penance? Did I not take my confession seriously? Was I not truly remorseful?

    If on the other hand one was given a penance that one rejected and one did not ask for a different penance, and so completed the absolution with no intention of doing the penance, then the confession is invalid.
    When you sin (I know that as hardly ever do you ever confess it immediately to God? If you do is it forgiven or does it have to be forgiven by a priest to be valid?

    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Tell me, Bob. Do you believe that Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name?
    That was an ecclestical gift to excommunicate

    Leave a comment:


  • nan
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post

    Which is?
    God does not demand we do penance for our sins. We are to repent. Big difference.

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by Iakobos View Post
    Not so simple. In most cases yes. Some cases, no, for example the guy sleeping with his mother-in-law in the epistles.
    Penance

    The sacrament of penance is our formal act of reconciliation with God in the Church when sin has severed us from the Church’s life. Because penance is the way to communion with God when that communion has been broken by sin, it is often referred to in Church Tradition as the renewal of baptism, or as the reestablishment of that condition of life with God which was given to men in the basic sacraments of inauguration into the Christian life.

    Not every sin requires the necessity of formal penance through sacramental ritual. This is obvious because Christians are never completely without sin. Certain grave sins or the prolonged separation from Holy Communion, however, do call for the act of sacramental penance. Also, Christians living in communion with Christ are expected to make use of this sacrament periodically in order to humble themselves consciously before God and to receive guidance in the Christian life from their pastor in the Church. It is the teaching of the Orthodox Church that sacramental penance is necessary for those receiving Holy Communion when they have committed grave sins or when they have been separated from the eucharistic meal for a long time.

    The sacrament of penance exists in the Church to allow for the repentance and reconversion of Christians who have fallen away from the life of faith. There are three main elements to the act of formal penance. The first is a sincere sorrow for sins and for the breaking of communion with God. The second is an open and heartfelt confession of sins. At one time this confession was done publicly before all men in the midst of the Church, but in recent times it is usually done only in the presence of the pastor of the Church who stands in behalf of all. The third element of penance is the formal prayer of absolution through which the forgiveness of God through Christ is sacramentally bestowed upon the repentant sinner.

    The fulfillment of penance consists in the reception of Holy Communion and the genuine reconciliation of the repentant sinner with God and all men according to the commandments of Christ. From this there obviously follows the necessity of a sincere attempt by the penitent to refrain from sin and to remain in faithful obedience to God and in uprightness of life before Him and all people.

    The sacrament of penance, like all sacraments, is an element of the life of the Church which presupposes a firm belief and conviction that Christ himself is present in the Church through his Holy Spirit. A person without the experience of Christ in the Church will not understand the meaning of sacramental penance and the need for the open and public confession of sins. When the Church is experienced as the new life in Christ and as the genuine communion with God in his kingdom already present with men in sacrament and mystery, then not only will sacramental penance and the confession of sins be understood, but it will be cherished as the great mystery of God which it is: the unique possibility for reunion with God through the forgiveness of Christ who has come to save sinners who confess their sins and who sincerely desire to change their lives according to the ways which he himself has given.

    In a word, the Orthodox Church strictly adheres to the teaching of the Bible that only God can forgive sins, that he does so through Christ in the Church, that his conditions are genuine repentance and the promise of change which are witnessed by confession; and that confession, by definition, is the open and public acknowledgment of sin before God and all mankind.

    https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthod...aments/penance
    where is this found in scripture?

    the RCC doesn't 'adhere' to the teachings found in God's word for believers.


    Leave a comment:


  • Atemi
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
    Since there is no other option, no you did not. You seem really scared to answer the very, very simple question.

    LOL really? Look, stop being afraid and address the third option.
    Third option?

    Either...

    1. Sinners merit Heaven with their works?

    OR

    2. Sinners DO NOT merit Heaven with their works?


    Cat got your tongue?

    Of course you don't own it. I never expected you to do your own research.
    So in order to do research, one must OWN texts that can be found online?

    LOL!

    Catholic "logic"!

    Makes us wonder how any Catholics made any arguments before 1992!

    I mention it because it's the Statement of Faith for the Church, and because you know it contradicts your nonsensical argument, you can't point to the Catechism for your proof.
    You do know your catechism is not exhaustive of all RC doctrines and dogmas, right?

    Hahahahaha.

    It's OK. We all know you do not have the official sanction of the RCC that the book has, nor do you have the credentials in understanding of Catholicism that Premm has. I just proved it using a Catholic authority that has the official imprimatur of your sect...unlike ANY of your posts.

    If you actually understood what the Imprimatur meant, you wouldn't be giving me such a silly argument.
    If the claim that sinners have to earn Heaven contradicted Catholic teaching, the well respected text would not have received an imprimatur from your church.

    Ya know, like NONE of your posts have the imprimatur from your church!

    LOL.

    If God merits salvation FOR us, why isn't everyone saved?

    How can God condemn anyone that He has chosen not to merit their salvation for them?

    Because people don't come to Christ?
    So God chooses not to merit the salvation of those people.

    Interesting. Are you some sort of Catholic Calvinist?

    Hahahaha.

    You already admitted you willfully disobey Christ's commandments.

    You do not even live up to your own stated standard.
    Need we guess that you extend special dispensations and loopholes for yourself?

    For someone who says he follows Christ, he surely doesn't know his Scriptures.
    You already admitted you willfully disobey Christ's commandments. Is there a Scripture that teaches disobeying Christ actually means obeying Him?

    ROFL!

    ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by Atemi View Post

    Since there is no other option, no you did not. You seem really scared to answer the very, very simple question.
    LOL really? Look, stop being afraid and address the third option. I know it freaks you out that I don't need to play your game, but try it.

    Originally posted by Atemi
    I only cited one book...and I do not own it. I do not have to own it.

    Hahahahahahaha.
    Of course you don't own it. I never expected you to do your own research.

    Makes us wonder how any Catholics made any arguments before 1992!

    ROFL!
    You're confused about why I mention the Catechism, I understand. I mention it because it's the Statement of Faith for the Church, and because you know it contradicts your nonsensical argument, you can't point to the Catechism for your proof. Which is fair, I understand that you don't want to point to what we actually teach.

    Originally posted by Atemi
    It's OK. We all know you do not have the official sanction of the RCC that the book has, nor do you have the credentials in understanding of Catholicism that Premm has. I just proved it using a Catholic authority that has the official imprimatur of your sect...unlike ANY of your posts.
    If you actually understood what the Imprimatur meant, you wouldn't be giving me such a silly argument. But thanks for playing!

    Originally posted by Atemi
    If God merits salvation FOR us, why isn't everyone saved?

    How can God condemn anyone that He has chosen not to merit their salvation for them?
    Because people don't come to Christ? I thought you read your Bible!

    Again, look at the above answer. I know the idea of "Free will" and most Christian theology confuses you, but I believe in you! You can do it!

    Originally posted by Atemi
    "We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works"
    Please provide proof that I said this exact statement. I'll wait.

    Originally posted by Atemi
    You already admitted you willfully disobey Christ's commandments.

    You do not even live up to your own stated standard. Need we guess that you extend special dispensations and loopholes for yourself?

    LOL!

    ...
    For someone who says he follows Christ, he surely doesn't know his Scriptures.
    John 14:15
    [ The Promise of the Holy Spirit ] “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
    John 14:21
    They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”
    John 15:10
    If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
    1 John 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
    1 John 5:3
    For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
    2 John 1:6
    And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning—you must walk in it. But wait, you tell me that I'm not living up to my standard. Try reading the Scriptures first before making such false claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • Atemi
    replied
    Originally posted by Geralt_De_Sales View Post
    It cannot be neither. Either sinners merit Heaven with their works....or they do not.

    There is not another option.


    I just presented one to you.
    Since there is no other option, no you did not. You seem really scared to answer the very, very simple question.

    "It is universally accepted dogma of the Catholic Church that man, in union with the grace of the Holy Spirit must merit heaven by his good works...Through these and similar works we can actually merit heaven as our reward...We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works"

    "Heaven must be fought for; we have to earn heaven"
    (Dogmatic Theology for the Laity, Rev. Matthias Premm, pp. 261-264, Imprimatur)


    LOL I doubt you own those books.
    I only cited one book...and I do not own it. I do not have to own it.

    Hahahahahahaha.

    If you want to make a real argument, cite the Catechism.
    Makes us wonder how any Catholics made any arguments before 1992!

    ROFL!

    It's OK. We all know you do not have the official sanction of the RCC that the book has, nor do you have the credentials in understanding of Catholicism that Premm has.

    You HAVE TO earn Heaven by your good works.

    No
    I just proved it using a Catholic authority that has the official imprimatur of your sect...unlike ANY of your posts.

    , as the grace of God is what fuels and merits salvation for us.
    If God merits salvation FOR us, why isn't everyone saved?

    How can God condemn anyone that He has chosen not to merit their salvation for them?

    However, our good works do determine whether we go to Heaven or Hell, as shown in Matthew 25:31-46.
    "We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works"

    You already admitted you do NOT obey Christ's command to be perfect!

    So you don't. Does that put you in the hot place forever....or did you keep His commandments ENOUGH to merit eternal life?


    As I've said more than once, it's not about "keeping His commandments enough". There is no such thing. You cannot, by yourself, earn salvation.
    However, if you want to abide in Christ, you must keep the commandments.
    You already admitted you willfully disobey Christ's commandments.

    You do not even live up to your own stated standard. Need we guess that you extend special dispensations and loopholes for yourself?

    LOL!

    ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by highrigger View Post

    So you think you will go to heaven when you die?

    Why do you think you are good enough? Or do you think you are saved through your Faith alone?

    JohnR
    I don't "think" I will go to Heaven after I die, I have faith in the promise of Christ that I will. But I also, like St. Paul, don't hold anything against myself, so I strive to follow Jesus' commandments out of love for Him.

    As I've said before, there is no such thing as "Good enough". I am saved through Jesus Christ, who commands me to believe in Him and to follow His commandments. The Church recognizes this as "faith working through love (Galatians 5:6), the idea that we are not only called to believe in Jesus, but we're called to walk as he walked (1 John 2:6).

    Leave a comment:


  • Geralt_De_Sales
    replied
    Originally posted by highrigger View Post


    That sounds like a Protestant answer. What is the difference?

    JohnR
    There is no difference. It's the Catholic answer. Unfortunately, there are many who believe the Church teaches otherwise.

    Leave a comment:

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