Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Matt 12:1-8, the new Temple (Jesus) and the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist).

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Matt 12:1-8, the new Temple (Jesus) and the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist).

    Matthew 12:1-8:

    At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the sabbath day. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the heads of grain and to eat.
    But when the Pharisees saw, they said to Him, Behold, your disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on the sabbath day.
    But He said to them, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him,
    how he entered into the house of God and ate the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
    Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?
    But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.
    But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
    For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.


    Within Matt 12:1-8, Jesus lays claim just as David did to the Priesthood. The Disciples are plucking grain, making bread, and eating it on the Sabbath day just like the old Priests did but with an added difference. Disciples are New True Priests that are going to offer the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist) from the new Temple (Jesus).

  • #2
    Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
    Matthew 12:1-8:

    At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the sabbath day. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the heads of grain and to eat.
    But when the Pharisees saw, they said to Him, Behold, your disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on the sabbath day.
    But He said to them, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him,
    how he entered into the house of God and ate the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
    Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?
    But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.
    But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
    For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.


    Within Matt 12:1-8, Jesus lays claim just as David did to the Priesthood. The Disciples are plucking grain, making bread, and eating it on the Sabbath day just like the old Priests did but with an added difference. Disciples are New True Priests that are going to offer the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist) from the new Temple (Jesus).
    The Old Covenant priesthood was a type of Christ just as the sacrificed perfect lamb was an Old Covenant type of Christ.... Jesus fulfilled both types on the cross ..priest and sacrifice .. that is why God destroyed the priesthood and sacrifices as they were fulfilled in Christ
    Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
      Within Matt 12:1-8, Jesus lays claim just as David did to the Priesthood.
      Falsehood #1: David never claimed to be an OT priest which could only come from the Levitical line.

      The Disciples are plucking grain, making bread, and eating it on the Sabbath day just like the old Priests did but with an added difference.
      Falsehood #2: no one was making bread.

      Disciples are New True Priests that are going to offer the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist) from the new Temple (Jesus).
      Falsehood #3: this is all made up and nowhere even implied in the text.

      Catholics make this too easy.

      ...
      "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
        Matthew 12:1-8:

        At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the sabbath day. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the heads of grain and to eat.
        But when the Pharisees saw, they said to Him, Behold, your disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on the sabbath day.
        But He said to them, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him,
        how he entered into the house of God and ate the showbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
        Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?
        But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.
        But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
        For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.


        Within Matt 12:1-8, Jesus lays claim just as David did to the Priesthood. The Disciples are plucking grain, making bread, and eating it on the Sabbath day just like the old Priests did but with an added difference. Disciples are New True Priests that are going to offer the new Showbread or new Bread of the Presence (the Eucharist) from the new Temple (Jesus).
        So what? The disciples as all of us are the priesthood of all believers as scripture teaches. What is your point?

        JohnR

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
          The Old Covenant priesthood was a type of Christ just as the sacrificed perfect lamb was an Old Covenant type of Christ.... Jesus fulfilled both types on the cross ..priest and sacrifice .. that is why God destroyed the priesthood and sacrifices as they were fulfilled in Christ
          Everything was transformed by Jesus whereby Jesus is the High Priest, Church authorities are Episkopos, Presbyters, and Deacons, and we are the Royal Priesthood. No nihilistic destruction happened as you're claiming.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Atemi View Post
            Falsehood #1: David never claimed to be an OT priest which could only come from the Levitical line.
            You have heard of the Melchizedek Order?

            Falsehood #2: no one was making bread.
            Grain is still what bread is made of.

            Falsehood #3: this is all made up and nowhere even implied in the text.
            Jesus is not the new Temple?!? Which Bible version are you reading, the evangelical-modified one?

            Catholics make this too easy.
            Evangelicals continue to mess up scripture and its spiritual meaning.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by highrigger View Post

              So what? The disciples as all of us are the priesthood of all believers as scripture teaches. What is your point?

              JohnR
              Whatever the Bible mentions is important such as the Eucharist, Liturgy, Episkopos, Presbyters, and Deacons. That's what.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                You have heard of the Melchizedek Order?
                Yes, but David was not a priest of any order, nor did he aspire to be.

                Grain is still what bread is made of.
                Still, bread is not mentioned in that passage. You can make many things out of grain (even beer) but you can also, as the disciples did, eat it as it is.

                Jesus is not the new Temple?!? Which Bible version are you reading, the evangelical-modified one?
                Where does Jesus claim to be the "new temple"? Not in that passage, for sure. If anything, His church is the new temple.

                Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. (1 Cor. 3:16-17)

                As you come to him, the living Stone - rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him - you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 2:4-5)

                Evangelicals continue to mess up scripture and its spiritual meaning.
                Rather, we simply focus on Christ and Him crucified. He is the spiritual meaning of the Scriptures.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Johan View Post
                  Yes, but David was not a priest of any order, nor did he aspire to be.
                  First let me say that it's good to talk to you again. You are one of the few evangelicals who not only quotes bible verses extensively but you think deeply about them as well. Now as for David, it can better be said that David exercises authority over the Temple and the Sabbath just as Jesus is doing that day. That doesn't detract anything from Jesus' Disciples who are the new Priests.

                  Still, bread is not mentioned in that passage. You can make many things out of grain (even beer) but you can also, as the disciples did, eat it as it is.
                  The connection between grain and bread is clear.

                  Where does Jesus claim to be the "new temple"? Not in that passage, for sure. If anything, His church is the new temple.

                  Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. (1 Cor. 3:16-17)

                  As you come to him, the living Stone - rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him - you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 2:4-5)
                  "And I saw no temple in it [New Jerusalem], for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb" (Rev 21:22).

                  Also, "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days? But He spoke of the temple of His body." (John 2:19-21).

                  As for our Royal Priesthood status as temples of God, everyone knows that.

                  Rather, we simply focus on Christ and Him crucified. He is the spiritual meaning of the Scriptures.
                  Let's listen closely to what scripture has to say about Christ and his Church. And let us grow in faith in Christ that way.
                  Last edited by UnionofGrace&Nature; 08-11-18, 06:39 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                    Everything was transformed by Jesus whereby Jesus is the High Priest, Church authorities are Episkopos, Presbyters, and Deacons, and we are the Royal Priesthood. No nihilistic destruction happened as you're claiming.
                    No priesthood listed for the NT church .. Even though Rome like redefining words Presbyters are not priests..
                    Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                      First let me say that it's good to talk to you again. You are one of the few evangelicals who not only quotes bible verses extensively but you think deeply about them as well. Now as for David, it can better be said that David exercises authority over the Temple and the Sabbath just as Jesus is doing that day. That doesn't detract anything from Jesus' Disciples who are the new Priests.

                      The connection between grain and bread is clear.

                      "And I saw no temple in it [New Jerusalem], for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb" (Rev 21:22).

                      Also, "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days? But He spoke of the temple of His body." (John 2:19-21).

                      As for our Royal Priesthood status as temples of God, everyone knows that.

                      Let's listen closely to what scripture has to say about Christ and his Church. And let us grow in faith in Christ that way.
                      This is pure silly Eisegesis
                      Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
                        This is pure silly Eisegesis
                        I see you have no counter-arguments to my bible-supported statements. I accept your white flag.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
                          No priesthood listed for the NT church .. Even though Rome like redefining words Presbyters are not priests..
                          It was either the Episkopos or a Presbyter that always presided over the Eucharist. Furthermore, we are the royal priesthood. No nihilistic destruction happened as you're claiming.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                            It was either the Episkopos or a Presbyter that always presided over the Eucharist. Furthermore, we are the royal priesthood. No nihilistic destruction happened as you're claiming.

                            the greek word for elder is different than the greek words for priest.. archiereus which translates into "High Priest" and hiereus which translates one that OFFERS SACRIFICES.

                            The role of the priesthood in scripture was to offer sacrifices.. That is what a priest does in scripture.. God set aside one tribe to be priests, they were not granted any land as God was their inheritance .

                            The greek have a couple words for priest

                            hiereus

                            1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites

                            a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,

                            2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ
                            [/indent]
                            and archiereus

                            1) chief priest, high priest

                            2) the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.

                            3) Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.


                            Neither role is given in scripture for the new church ..


                            Christ fulfilled the role of Priest on the cross.. there is no more sacrifice for sin


                            He is now our High Priest..


                            The word for elder is presbyteros here is the GREEK definition

                            1) elder, of age,

                            a) the elder of two people

                            b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior

                            1) forefathers

                            2) a term of rank or office

                            a) among the Jews

                            1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)

                            2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice

                            b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably

                            c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God



                            Now the Holy Spirit knows the difference in the greek words.. there is no priesthood provided for in the NT church.


                            There was no priests in the new church.it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..



                            Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states,

                            "Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices
                            in both the Jewish and pagan religions."


                            "A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, 'overseer'). In English this came to be translated as 'bishop' (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community's Eucharistic assembly."


                            "When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist."


                            Garry Wills, Professor
                            Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                              I see you have no counter-arguments to my bible-supported statements. I accept your white flag.
                              You have defined this scripture to mean what you want it to mean .... that my friend is esigesus
                              Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X