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paul said bishops can be married

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  • paul said bishops can be married

    so why does the RCC say they cant? paul also said that saying one cant be married is a doctrine of demons. am i missing something here? it doesnt seem complicated to me.

  • #2
    Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
    so why does the RCC say they cant? paul also said that saying one cant be married is a doctrine of demons. am i missing something here? it doesnt seem complicated to me.
    Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church. It's a general rule in the Roman Church with few exceptions.

    But the "doctrine of demons" you reference was a condemnation of some gnostic groups who prohibited marriage to eliminate childbirth. Their belief was that a human soul was a divine creation while all physical matter, including the human body, was inherently evil. To produce children was to imprison a divine soul in an evil body.

    The gnostics in many cases were strictly vegetarians so they "condemned meats meant to be taken with thanksgiving".

    Comment


    • #3
      I think he said elders could be married. Peter, the supposed first "pope" was married. If it wasn't a sin for him, it is hardly a sin for any other church worker.

      Another note here--there is no formal ordained priesthood in the NT church, and Paul doesn't even list priests as workers in the church. We have only the "priesthood of ALL believers" that all Christians belong to. We don't need a formal priesthood anymore.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

        Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church. It's a general rule in the Roman Church with few exceptions.

        But the "doctrine of demons" you reference was a condemnation of some gnostic groups who prohibited marriage to eliminate childbirth. Their belief was that a human soul was a divine creation while all physical matter, including the human body, was inherently evil. To produce children was to imprison a divine soul in an evil body.

        The gnostics in many cases were strictly vegetarians so they "condemned meats meant to be taken with thanksgiving".
        What about 1 Tim 3:2? Tim says a bishop should be married. Were they gnostics? What a theory.

        JohnR

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

          Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church. It's a general rule in the Roman Church with few exceptions.

          But the "doctrine of demons" you reference was a condemnation of some gnostic groups who prohibited marriage to eliminate childbirth. Their belief was that a human soul was a divine creation while all physical matter, including the human body, was inherently evil. To produce children was to imprison a divine soul in an evil body.

          The gnostics in many cases were strictly vegetarians so they "condemned meats meant to be taken with thanksgiving".
          This Gnostic stuff isn't mentioned in the Bible. However, if Paul was condemning the Gnostics, then it was wrong for the church to forbid marriage among church workers, as well.
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by highrigger View Post

            What about 1 Tim 3:2? Tim says a bishop should be married. Were they gnostics? What a theory.

            JohnR
            I don't think Paul meant that a bishop MUST be married, but rather, if he is, he must be the husband of ONLY one wife.

            But if bishops can be married, then so should other church workers. Besides, nowhere does Paul mention priests as church workers. So the point is moot, if you ask me.

            I think the RCC does allowed married men to become priests, and remain married--unlike in the Middle Ages, they had to divorce their wives, if they wanted to remain priests.

            Here is an interesting article about the evolution of celibate priesthood in the church, written by a Catholic:

            http://angels_eagles.tripod.com/priest1.htm

            Here is an excerpt:

            In the 11th century, the attacks against the married priesthood grew in intensity. In 1074, Pope Gregory VII legislated that anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy. Continuing his unnatural attack against women, he publicly stated that "...the Church cannot escape from the clutches of the laity unless priests first escape the clutches of their wives". Within 20 years, things took a turn for the worse. In the year 1095, there was an escalation of brutal force against married priests and their families. Pope Urban II ordered that married priests who ignored the celibacy laws be imprisoned for the good of their souls. He had the wives and children of those married priests sold into slavery.

            The effort to consolidate church power in the medieval hierarchy and to seize the land assets the married priest families saw its victory in 1139. The legislation that effectively ended the married priesthood came from the Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II. The true motivation for these laws was medieval greed and the thirst for power. The laws demanding mandatory celibacy for priests used the language of purity and holiness, but their true intent was to solidify control over the lower clergy and eliminate any challenge to the political objectives of the medieval hierarchy. One brave man, the Italian bishop Ulric of Imola, argued that the hierarchy had no right to forbid marriage to priests and urged bishops and priests not to abandon their families. He prophesied that the imposition of mandatory celibacy on priests would cause them to commit horrible sins. The recent number of highly publicized cases of clergy sexual misconduct have unfortunately proven good Bishop Ulric of Imola correct.

            The respected tradition of the married priesthood was virtually destroyed by the new celibacy laws. The healthy family origins of our faith withered with the destruction of the married priesthood and the devaluation of women in the Church. The rule of law and the exercise of power were victorious over the compassionate spirit of Jesus and the family values embodied in the married priesthood.

            Many of the problems we face in the Church today can be traced back to this period of our Church history, but we are not without hope. We are at the end of the 20thcentury, and God seems to be calling us back to the wholesomeness of our origins as a Church. In the past 25 years, over 110,000 Roman Catholic priests, world-wide, have married and many have continued to offer their priesthood to individual Catholics and communities who request their service. One out of every three Roman Catholic priests in the United States today is a married priest. The number of celibate priests transitioning to the married priesthood continues to grow.

            Father John Shuster
            Married Roman Catholic Priest
            This was written at the end of the last century, so I do not know how accurate the last paragraph is now. And how would priests get married, if it isn't allowed? Unless these were married men who became priests long after they married. But mainly I put this down on here for the concise history lesson it comtains.

            Here is a bit more:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy

            This site says only in the "permanent deaconite" can one be married in the CC.
            Last edited by Bonnie; 09-14-18, 05:20 PM.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

              Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church. It's a general rule in the Roman Church with few exceptions.

              But the "doctrine of demons" you reference was a condemnation of some gnostic groups who prohibited marriage to eliminate childbirth. Their belief was that a human soul was a divine creation while all physical matter, including the human body, was inherently evil. To produce children was to imprison a divine soul in an evil body.

              The gnostics in many cases were strictly vegetarians so they "condemned meats meant to be taken with thanksgiving".
              Against what the Bible clearly says. The current worldwide scandal in the rcc is because the great majority of men are not celibate. And then you stick unredeemed men in close quarters with other men.....or in this case children and.....
              Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                This Gnostic stuff isn't mentioned in the Bible. However, if Paul was condemning the Gnostics, then it was wrong for the church to forbid marriage among church workers, as well.
                Sure the "gnostic stuff" is mentioned in the bible. A goodly portion of the new testament was written to refute their beliefs. The first mention of "antichrist" is a condemnation of the gnostic teaching that Jesus was on the earth as a spirit with no physical body. The writer condemns those who do not acknowledge that Jesus appeared "in the flesh".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by highrigger View Post

                  What about 1 Tim 3:2? Tim says a bishop should be married. Were they gnostics? What a theory.

                  JohnR
                  It prohibits a divorced and remarried man or a man married to more than one woman from becoming a bishop. If we read it to exclude unmarried men Paul himself would have been unqualified to be a bishop.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

                    Sure the "gnostic stuff" is mentioned in the bible. A goodly portion of the new testament was written to refute their beliefs. The first mention of "antichrist" is a condemnation of the gnostic teaching that Jesus was on the earth as a spirit with no physical body. The writer condemns those who do not acknowledge that Jesus appeared "in the flesh".
                    The NT does not mention Gnosticism, though comes close with the part about how Jesus truly came in the flesh, which Gnostics denied. But again, my point is, If the Gnostics were wrong about this, so is Catholicism. Bishops and other workers in the church can be married.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                      Against what the Bible clearly says. The current worldwide scandal in the rcc is because the great majority of men are not celibate. And then you stick unredeemed men in close quarters with other men.....or in this case children and.....
                      The bible clearly says "he that is able to accept it let him accept it".

                      The same Church that has always viewed celibacy as superior to marriage is the same Church that eventually prohibited polygamy. We often condemn the Mormons for polygamy but there is nothing in the bible prohibiting it. Monogamy in marriage is a discipline created by the Church.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

                        The bible clearly says "he that is able to accept it let him accept it".
                        Obviously this leaves your priests out doesn't it.

                        The same Church that has always viewed celibacy as superior to marriage is the same Church that eventually prohibited polygamy. We often condemn the Mormons for polygamy but there is nothing in the bible prohibiting it. Monogamy in marriage is a discipline created by the Church.
                        Wow, is that a distorted view of scripture.
                        Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                          Obviously this leaves your priests out doesn't it.
                          My priest is married.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by toothpaste View Post
                            so why does the RCC say they cant? paul also said that saying one cant be married is a doctrine of demons. am i missing something here? it doesnt seem complicated to me.
                            The RCC does not say Bishops cannot be married--if by that you mean it is forbidden in an absolute sense.

                            Celibacy is a discipline seen as helpful to the vocation of a bishop and a priest. This does not imply that the the practice is not changeable. In fact Pope Francis seems open to rethinking the practice.

                            Though I am sure you can agree--right now, the Church has a lot more important things on her plate--like the sex abuse crisis that has exploded. Rethinking celibacy will have to wait.

                            I don't think anyone would have thought that 2002 was just a prelude to the main event...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

                              The bible clearly says "he that is able to accept it let him accept it".

                              The same Church that has always viewed celibacy as superior to marriage is the same Church that eventually prohibited polygamy. We often condemn the Mormons for polygamy but there is nothing in the bible prohibiting it. Monogamy in marriage is a discipline created by the Church.
                              God never endorsed polygamy, either, but tolerated it under certain circumstances. But Paul said that, because of sexual immorality, each man should have his wife, and each woman, her husband. Singular. And bishops should ONLY have one wife. Plus, God set the pattern by creating ONE wife for Adam--not dozens.

                              And why should celibacy be "superior to marriage"? When God created man and woman to be married and to be helpmeets for each other?
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment

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