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Mary... Significant archetype or Serial Pest?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

    There is a modern Protestant line of propaganda that claims that the early Church didn't rate Mary the Mother of Christ, that highly. It is honestly false. Luke's writings about the Annunciation, the Visitation to Elizabeth and the Birth of the Saviour... moved many Fathers of the Church to joy and love for the Holy Mother. The first record of Christmas celebrations was around 336 AD. I often think that anti Mary Evangelicals are hypocritical for partaking in Christmas celebrations because it grew from veneration for the life of Mary rather than worship of Christ. Jews did not celebrate birthdays because it was considered a Roman pagan celebration.

    These are some of the reflections of the Fathers that inspired the early Christians veneration of Christs mother even prior to having the bible and Luke's tribute for themselves....
    Luke's writings about Mary were to tell the story of the birth of Jesus - not to glorify or venerate Mary.

    This is but one problem of following uninspired writings. They may not have had the bible as we know it today, but there were teachings, letters - it was made known how these things came to be.

    "For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon¬ her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it done to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were¬ spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D.)

    ]"As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel's speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin's disobedience¬ by a virgin' obedience." (Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons Against Heresies, 3, 19 130 A.D.)
    Eve/Mary ^^^

    'So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.' Romans 5:18-19

    Adam/Jesus ^^^

    Eve/Mary Adam/Jesus Uma/Oprah

    sorry.

    Whoever wrote this took what Jesus did and handed it straight over to Mary. How can rcs not see how wrong this is!?!

    "Mary might become the advocate" ???

    The human race was saved by a virgin???

    I don't even have words.


    "Eve was called the mother of the living ...after the fall this title was given to her. True it is...the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all living". (Epiphanius 4th century)

    Ridiculous and absolutely unscriptural. UNscriptural.

    "Blessed Virgin, immaculate and pure you are the sinless Mother of your Son, the mighty Lord of the universe. You are holy and inviolate, the hope of the hopeless and sinful; we sing your praises. We praise you as full of every grace, for you bore the God-Man. We all venerate you; we invoke you and implore your aid...Holy and immaculate Virgin...be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgment...you are holy in the sight of God, to Whom be honor and glory, majesty, and power forever (373 AD, St. Ephem of Edessa).
    Sinless? By whose word is that? 'St Ephem'? Not scriptural.

    Inviolate? How so?

    Rcs venerate invoke implore her aid to be intercessor and advocate. Baseless and she can't hear you. She is not omnipresent and just because there are people in heaven does not mean they can hear you.


    "It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called 'full of Grace'..." (373 St. Athanasius).

    "Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? ...accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God...Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. ...Make it your continual care to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns for ever (St Augustine in 430 A.D. )

    Again with Mary having 'rescued a fallen world'.

    You (rcs) are giving HER credit for what Christ did.

    2 Cor 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


    2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

    Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

      There is a modern Protestant line of propaganda that claims that the early Church didn't rate Mary the Mother of Christ, that highly. It is honestly false. Luke's writings about the Annunciation, the Visitation to Elizabeth and the Birth of the Saviour... moved many Fathers of the Church to joy and love for the Holy Mother. The first record of Christmas celebrations was around 336 AD. I often think that anti Mary Evangelicals are hypocritical for partaking in Christmas celebrations because it grew from veneration for the life of Mary rather than worship of Christ. Jews did not celebrate birthdays because it was considered a Roman pagan celebration.
      Correction, we love Mary. We defend Mary. And we fight with righteous indignation when we see the mockery you people make of her. We fight against YOUR mary, not the biblical Mary. The bible doesn't give mary any of the titles, powers and offices given to her by your church.

      These are some of the reflections of the Fathers that inspired the early Christians veneration of Christs mother even prior to having the bible and Luke's tribute for themselves....

      "For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon¬ her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it done to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were¬ spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D.)
      Do you have a full citation? Where in his dialogue does this occur...chapter/verse? Found it.You'll have to show us where all this veneration takes place though cuz i don't see it. Its about Jesus, not Mary.
      Chapter 100 - In What Sense Christ is [Called] Jacob, and Israel, and Son of Man

      "Then what follows-'But Thou, the praise of Israel, inhabitest the holy place'-declared that He is to do something worthy of praise and wonderment, being about to rise again from the dead on the third day after the crucifixion; and this He has obtained from the Father. For I have showed already that Christ is called both Jacob and Israel; and I have proved that it is not in the blessing of Joseph and Judah alone that what relates to Him was proclaimed mysteriously, but also in the Gospel it is written that He said: 'All things are delivered unto me by My Father; 'and, 'No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.' Accordingly He revealed to us all that we have perceived by His grace out of the Scriptures, so that we know Him to be the first-begotten of God, and to be before all creatures; likewise to be the Son of the patriarchs, since He assumed flesh by the Virgin of their family, and submitted to become a man without comeliness, dishonoured, and subject to suffering. Hence, also, among His words He said, when He was discoursing about His future sufferings: 'The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.' He said then that He was the Son of man, either because of His birth by the Virgin, who was, as I said, of the family of David and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham; or because Adam was the father both of Himself and of those who have been first enumerated from whom Mary derives her descent.

      For we know that the fathers of women are the fathers likewise of those children whom their daughters bear. For [Christ] called one of His disciples-previously known by the name of Simon-Peter; since he recognised Him to be Christ the Son. of God, by the revelation of His Father: and since we find it recorded in the memoirs of His apostles that He is the Son of God, and since we call Him the Son, we have understood that He proceeded before all creatures from the Father by His power and will (for He is addressed in the writings of the prophets in one way or another as Wisdom, and the Day, and the East, and a Sword, and a Stone, and a Rod, and Jacob, and Israel); and that He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.

      For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.'" And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.
      (from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
      Wow, thats some venerating going on there. Hardly! Three times Justin simply calls her 'the virgin', once simply 'Mary' and only one time 'the virgin Mary'. Did you not notice ALL the rest of the chapter speaking about Jesus? Did you notice how many times scripture was referenced? Never tradition, never pope Peter. Absolutely nothing even remotely roman catholic here. Youre 0-2 when it comes to texts meaning what you think it means. When you get around to citing the others i won't be shocked to read they probably say nothing like what was quoted.

      "As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel's speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin's disobedience¬ by a virgin' obedience." (Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons Against Heresies, 3, 19 130 A.D.)
      I have his works and i read all of 3:19 and not one bit of what you quoted is in there. I'd be happy to copy the entire thing if you like. But as it stands, none of what you copied here is anywhere in what you referenced.

      "Eve was called the mother of the living ...after the fall this title was given to her. True it is...the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all living". (Epiphanius 4th century)
      Epiphanius, thats it? No book no chapter no paragraph? I suppose we have to read all of Epihanius huh?

      "Blessed Virgin, immaculate and pure you are the sinless Mother of your Son, the mighty Lord of the universe. You are holy and inviolate, the hope of the hopeless and sinful; we sing your praises. We praise you as full of every grace, for you bore the God-Man. We all venerate you; we invoke you and implore your aid...Holy and immaculate Virgin...be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgment...you are holy in the sight of God, to Whom be honor and glory, majesty, and power forever (373 AD, St. Ephem of Edessa).
      Again no citation of book, chapter, paragraph? Why?

      "It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called 'full of Grace'..." (373 St. Athanasius).
      Again, no proper citation. I guess you don't want to be taken seriously do you?

      "Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? ...accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to bring about our peace with God...Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you, feel now your help and protection. ...Make it your continual care to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns for ever (St Augustine in 430 A.D. )
      Just 'Augustine'? No citation, book, chapter....nothing. So the one source you did cite i read and found not one thing similar to what you wrote. All the others are meaningless until a proper citation is offered. Until then you have nothing. Also, you need to be citing where this came from, a website, a book? What? Sloppy work.
      Last edited by Nondenom40; 10-12-18, 07:00 PM.
      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Johan View Post

        There is absolutely no evidence in the passage that Jesus "obeyed her as His mother rather than wait as He felt His Father willed". Not only is this claim eisegesis of the highest order - it is even borderline blasphemy since you indicate that Jesus was prepared to obey a human being in opposition to the will of His divine Father. On the contrary, Jesus responds to Mary in exactly the same way as the demons responded to Jesus on several occasions: τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί - literally, "what to me and to you". This phrase invariably indicated a demarcation of distance.

        But τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί; (a LXX rendering of מה לי ולך) is abrupt and draws a sharp line between Jesus and his mother. In these words the demons address Jesus (Mark 1:24; 5:7), and Matt 8:29 (ἦλθες ὧδε πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς) is particularly instructive: You have no business with us - yet. Similarly the reply of Jesus seems to mean: You have no claims upon me - yet. In the same way Jesus refuses to act upon the instructions of his brothers (7:6); his decisions are his own, and depend only on the Father's will. [1]

        References

        [1] Barrett, C. K. (1978). Gospel according to St John: An Introduction with Commentary and Notes on the Greek Text (Second Edition, p. 191). London: SPCK. (emphasis in bold mine)
        What makes those explanations extremely unlikely is the fact that Jesus did as Mary asked Him. As a reader of Scripture with all the benefit of 2000 years of theology, I still can't dismiss that verse as either demarcation of distance or rebuke. The fact that Jesus performed this miracle can really only imply Gods approval with the request and affirmation of Mary as truly 'blessed' among women.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

          Wow, do you read this stuff before you post it? You seriously think Jesus obeyed mary over and above what His Father wanted? To have 'obeyed' means she didn't ask, she told him what to do. That is nowhere in the text. And to put this in perspective again, she asked Him to provide more booze for a party. Is this really the verse you want to hang your hat on when it comes to your mariolatry?
          You have failed to read what I wrote carefully. "He obeyed her as His mother rather than wait as He felt His Father willed." Jesus felt/thought that it wasn't what His Father willed but in fact it was since He did what His mother asked Him to do. Do you believe that He did something inspite of His Fathers will? No. His Father obviously willed Him to do as His mother asked.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Johan View Post

            Please note that she also writes "as He felt His Father willed", as if Jesus only had an intuition of His Father's will rather than firmly knowing His will. A shocking post indeed.
            No, only shocking to those who deny God willed the Holy Motherhoods support in Christs mission of salvation.

            How do you explain Jesus doing as His mother requested?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

              I'd also add that Jesus did not have the 'gift' of miracles as He is God. He is the source of them. And also if she felt what God's will is, that means she would have to know the mind of God. She packed that one post with a whole lotta heresy.
              So then explain why Jesus did as His Mother asked if she was in fact being nothing more than a mindless pest to Him?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Stepping Heavenward View Post

                What's equalling disturbing as the not knowing would be the not doing what He felt the Father willed.
                What is your explanation of why He did as His mother asked, regardless?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Rudder View Post

                  That is categorically not true.
                  Unfortunately the opposite is true. CARM nonCC's think that Mary was a demon as Johan's theologian suggested.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
                    This is not a question, requesting a scriptural answer?

                    Where does Jesus, or his apostles teach that the Holy Spirit would speak outside the authority of God's inspired written Holy bible?
                    Everything written in Scripture is true. That does not mean that everything that is true is written in Scripture. Thus, Jesus pointed beyond what was known by His apostles then, to all that His own would come to know through the Holy Spirit:
                    Joh 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
                    Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
                    Why do you refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit?
                    ... For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;...
                    But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                      This is not about the mother of Jesus.. This is about Jesus

                      Note Jesus does not call her "mother"..instead He displays a change in their relationship by calling her by the common term "woman"

                      There are several thoughts on this.. Jesus had never preformed a miracle at this point..what would make Mary believe that He would turn washing water into wine? She might have expected Jesus to send men out to purchase more.. when she said to them "do as He tells you".

                      The significance of this is first that it caused His disciples to believe... "11Jesus performed this, the first of His signs, at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

                      This miracle prefigures salvation.. it prefigured salvation not by ritual washing, not by human works ,but by a work of Christ... Christ changed the nature of those water washing pots into pots filled with wine , a symbol of Joy to the Jews ....just as He changes the nature of those that come to Him


                      "1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and His disciples had also been invited to the wedding

                      4“Woman, why does this concern us?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

                      John 12:23 Jesus answered them, ‘The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

                      This is not about Mary... this is about Christ


                      The reformation 'experts' (beyond Luther as he had a strong devotion to Mary and her intercessory role) have worked hard to erase Mary from this scene because it doesn't gel with their masculine Christology.

                      The reason for mariology in the first place was in response to the ordinary Christian taking the words of the Scriptures into their hearts wholly. The verses about Mary and Jesus at Cana come directly from the disciples witness. They have remembered the scene including the detail of Mary's request to her Son and His reluctance at it not being part of the plan as He knew it. The reader can not but contemplate the fact that He did what she asked anyway and believe it to be within Gods will. It reveals something of the esteem with which Mary was held by both her Son and the Father.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by nan View Post

                        That's your Church's title for Mary. Not God's.

                        Scripture describes the deference Jesus holds for the word of God as greater than His esteem for His mother (Luke 11:27-28),
                        Ver. 28. Menounge, imo vero, yes indeed. Our Saviour does not here wish to deny what the woman had said, but rather to confirm it: indeed how could he deny, as Calvin impiously maintained, that his mother was blessed? By these words, he only wishes to tell his auditors what great advantage they might obtain by attending to his words. For the blessed Virgin, as S. Augustine says, was more happy in having our Saviour in her heart and affections, than in having conceived him in her womb. Tirinus. (Haydock Bible Commentary)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Thomas View Post

                          Everything written in Scripture is true. That does not mean that everything that is true is written in Scripture. Thus, Jesus pointed beyond what was known by His apostles then, to all that His own would come to know through the Holy Spirit:
                          Joh 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
                          Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
                          Why do you refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit?
                          The Holy Spirit declared all things which are now recorded in God's inspired written Holy Bible; you need to prove that verse was declaring RCC's uninspired unwritten Tradition.
                          1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                            Luke's writings about Mary were to tell the story of the birth of Jesus - not to glorify or venerate Mary.

                            This is but one problem of following uninspired writings. They may not have had the bible as we know it today, but there were teachings, letters - it was made known how these things came to be.
                            You must understand though that the Bible was a work of these same people. The holy teachers and theologians writing about the epistles and letters of the Apostles and disciples. They and their own writings became part of the deposit of faith. They contribute to the work of the Church today but it was a work of this college of theologians that pulled the bible together under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. NonCC's seem to talk about the bible as if it fell from the sky completed and bound. The writings that didn't make the bible are not by default, worthless to us. They contribute to the history of the Councils and doctrines formulated to guard the authentic understanding of Christs teachings through the Apostles. They are all part of the pre bible tradition of the Church.



                            Eve/Mary ^^^

                            'So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.' Romans 5:18-19

                            Adam/Jesus ^^^

                            Eve/Mary Adam/Jesus Uma/Oprah

                            sorry.

                            Whoever wrote this took what Jesus did and handed it straight over to Mary. How can rcs not see how wrong this is!?!

                            "Mary might become the advocate" ???

                            The human race was saved by a virgin???

                            I don't even have words.




                            Sinless? By whose word is that? 'St Ephem'? Not scriptural.

                            Inviolate? How so?

                            Rcs venerate invoke implore her aid to be intercessor and advocate. Baseless and she can't hear you. She is not omnipresent and just because there are people in heaven does not mean they can hear you.





                            Again with Mary having 'rescued a fallen world'.

                            You (rcs) are giving HER credit for what Christ did.

                            2 Cor 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

                            There are a number of converts to Catholicism marry into our family and one of the hardest things they find to overcome, is the fear of Mary. They recognise how this fear has been groomed rather than a natural response to the Mary of Scripture. They realise that Catholics don't in fact think Mary is the Saviour or that she is divine. It becomes a source of great relief to be allowed to love her as the Mother of Christ and sing about her blessedness in the eyes of God.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                              Correction, we love Mary. We defend Mary. And we fight with righteous indignation when we see the mockery you people make of her. We fight against YOUR mary, not the biblical Mary. The bible doesn't give mary any of the titles, powers and offices given to her by your church.
                              Would that be like the 'love' your good mate demonstrates by #43....

                              Basically Jesus blows off Mary

                              These are some of the reflections of the Fathers that inspired the early Christians veneration of Christs mother even prior to having the bible and Luke's tribute for themselves....

                              "For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon¬ her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it done to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were¬ spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him (Justin MartyrDialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D.)
                              Do you have a full citation? Where in his dialogue does this occur...chapter/verse? Found it.You'll have to show us where all this veneration takes place though cuz i don't see it. Its about Jesus, not Mary.

                              Wow, thats some venerating going on there. Hardly! Three times Justin simply calls her 'the virgin', once simply 'Mary' and only one time 'the virgin Mary'. Did you not notice ALL the rest of the chapter speaking about Jesus? Did you notice how many times scripture was referenced? Never tradition, never pope Peter. Absolutely nothing even remotely roman catholic here. Youre 0-2 when it comes to texts meaning what you think it means. When you get around to citing the others i won't be shocked to read they probably say nothing like what was quoted.
                              Unfortunately your error is you misreading my words. I stated that these were some of the works the "inspired the early Christians veneration"


                              "As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel's speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin's disobedience¬ by a virgin' obedience." (Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons Against Heresies, 3, 19 130 A.D.)
                              I have his works and i read all of 3:19 and not one bit of what you quoted is in there. I'd be happy to copy the entire thing if you like. But as it stands, none of what you copied here is anywhere in what you referenced.
                              What, nothing about Mary contrasted with Eve, the one being obedient to the others disobedience and through the obedience, being a means of our salvation? I suggest that you may have a propaganda piece altered to cut out those important points.

                              Epiphanius, thats it? No book no chapter no paragraph? I suppose we have to read all of Epihanius huh?

                              Again no citation of book, chapter, paragraph? Why?

                              Again, no proper citation. I guess you don't want to be taken seriously do you?

                              Just 'Augustine'? No citation, book, chapter....nothing. So the one source you did cite i read and found not one thing similar to what you wrote. All the others are meaningless until a proper citation is offered. Until then you have nothing. Also, you need to be citing where this came from, a website, a book? What? Sloppy work.
                              The information was gathered from a Catholic forum that we are not allowed to link to. I dare say that you will dismiss the works out of hand as you've done with Ireneaus "Against Heresies" anyhow.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mercedes View Post

                                Ver. 28. Menounge, imo vero, yes indeed. Our Saviour does not here wish to deny what the woman had said, but rather to confirm it: indeed how could he deny, as Calvin impiously maintained, that his mother was blessed? By these words, he only wishes to tell his auditors what great advantage they might obtain by attending to his words. For the blessed Virgin, as S. Augustine says, was more happy in having our Saviour in her heart and affections, than in having conceived him in her womb. Tirinus. (Haydock Bible Commentary)
                                Lol. Quoting a Catholic commentary by a Catholic priest based on his notes as they appear in the 1859 edition of Haydock's Catholic Family Bible and commentary. Ingenious.

                                Who said that Jesus denied His respect for His mother? He simply told the crowd what was more important to Him.

                                Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

                                28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."


                                We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

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