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Only fulfilled by imputation?

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  • Only fulfilled by imputation?

    Protestants so often tell me about a once-for-all-time imputed righteousness (justification) with sanctification not being part of justification, ever. We Catholics believe justification involves sanctification in addition to forgiveness, etc.

    John Calvin wrote in his Institutes: (III. xi. 23) Boldface/underlining mine.

    You see that our righteousness is not in ourselves, but in Christ; that the only way in which we become possessed of it is by being made partakers with Christ, since with Him we possess all riches. There is nothing repugnant to this in what he elsewhere says: "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" (Romans 8:3, 4). Here the only fulfillment to which he refers is that which we obtain by imputation.
    The only fulfillment!

    But look at Rom 8:3-4 (Calvin left out v. 4b - the red part)

    3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    So Calvin omits the red part, and says the "only fulfillment" of the requirement of the law is obtained by imputation...not fulfillment by walking according to the Spirit (which immediately follows in the text).

    -BHM
    For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

  • #2
    Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
    Protestants so often tell me about a once-for-all-time imputed righteousness (justification) with sanctification not being part of justification, ever. We Catholics believe justification involves sanctification in addition to forgiveness, etc.

    John Calvin wrote in his Institutes: (III. xi. 23) Boldface/underlining mine.



    The only fulfillment!

    But look at Rom 8:3-4 (Calvin left out v. 4b - the red part)

    3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    So Calvin omits the red part, and says the "only fulfillment" of the requirement of the law is obtained by imputation...not fulfillment by walking according to the Spirit (which immediately follows in the text).

    -BHM
    I don't follow Calvin.

    For whom He foreknew,
    He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
    that He might be the first-born among many brethren
    (Ro 8:29).

    What did God foreknew? ....... Who would be justified by faith.

    Therefore God predestined a process of discipleship - sanctification
    to follow that justification He foreknew.




    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
      Protestants so often tell me about a once-for-all-time imputed righteousness (justification) with sanctification not being part of justification, ever. We Catholics believe justification involves sanctification in addition to forgiveness, etc.
      And you Catholics also believe in a "Magic Mary" who has to help her SON do the right thing by us because HE can't refuse her. SO much for what Catholics believe.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

        And you Catholics also believe in a "Magic Mary" who has to help her SON do the right thing by us because HE can't refuse her. SO much for what Catholics believe.
        What? All good comes from God. What's all this?

        -BHM
        For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post

          What? All good comes from God. What's all this?

          -BHM
          SImple WHO CARES WHAT CATHOLICS BELIEVE!!!! Catholics don't even know if they'll "Make the Cut" when they die, since theyre essentially FAITHLESS in the Biblical context of the term.

          The ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS that I will EVER HAVE is that of Jesus, since as a Born Again Christian I am IN HIM and HE's in ME. There is NOTHING that a Human can do to produce any righteousness of his own, and when I SIN as a born again Christian, then I have an Advocate when I confess and repent (no Priest in a little room required).

          The Catholics aren't aware that the Born Again Christian IS PERFECT, and TOTALLY SINLESS, with the righteousness of Jesus, bought for human by the BLOOD OF JESUS which is our perfect Sin Offering (Isa 53).

          And human that sets out to EARN THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, is doomed from the start, and WILL NEVER see heaven.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
            Protestants so often tell me about a once-for-all-time imputed righteousness (justification) with sanctification not being part of justification, ever.
            That's not true....those that are justified are being sanctified....the difference is that Catholics see justification as a process, and it isn't, sanctification is a process.

            We Catholics believe justification involves sanctification in addition to forgiveness, etc.
            So do we. Those who are justified are also being sanctified.

            John Calvin wrote in his Institutes: (III. xi. 23) Boldface/underlining mine.
            Not sure what the problem is....we are imputed righteousness.


            The only fulfillment!

            But look at Rom 8:3-4 (Calvin left out v. 4b - the red part)

            3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
            4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

            So Calvin omits the red part, and says the "only fulfillment" of the requirement of the law is obtained by imputation...not fulfillment by walking according to the Spirit (which immediately follows in the text).

            -BHM
            You can't walk according to the Spirit if you aren't justified. We walk according to the Spirit because of justification, not in order to be justified.

            ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

              SImple WHO CARES WHAT CATHOLICS BELIEVE!!!! Catholics don't even know if they'll "Make the Cut" when they die, since theyre essentially FAITHLESS in the Biblical context of the term.

              The ONLY RIGHTEOUSNESS that I will EVER HAVE is that of Jesus, since as a Born Again Christian I am IN HIM and HE's in ME. There is NOTHING that a Human can do to produce any righteousness of his own, and when I SIN as a born again Christian, then I have an Advocate when I confess and repent (no Priest in a little room required).

              The Catholics aren't aware that the Born Again Christian IS PERFECT, and TOTALLY SINLESS, with the righteousness of Jesus, bought for human by the BLOOD OF JESUS which is our perfect Sin Offering (Isa 53).

              And human that sets out to EARN THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, is doomed from the start, and WILL NEVER see heaven.

              Of course there's nothing humans can do...we're fallen. My point is that God has to make us acceptable by giving repentance, faith (required up front...one stands justified at that point in time), and also sanctification to bring about ongoing repentance and confession.

              But I've cited scripture to you that you haven't dealt with that supports my claim. And you supply no scripture that supports your claim.

              For instance, why does the Lord still have to discipline us so we won't be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32)?

              Why would we need warnings like this? How could we be acceptable to God (justification) without being sanctified as well?

              Gal 6
              7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
              8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
              9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

              It seems from what you said it's a once-for-all imputed thing, and we're in no need of future grace to enter heaven. Is that correct? If you do believe you need future grace to enter heaven, what would that entail?

              - BHM
              For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                That's not true....those that are justified are being sanctified....the difference is that Catholics see justification as a process, and it isn't, sanctification is a process.
                Yes, this is what I believe. I didn't mean to say Protestants don't believe that God sanctifies. From what I understand, protestants separate the two whereby we do not.

                So do we. Those who are justified are also being sanctified.
                Yes, but protestants don't think sanctification is part of justification itself, correct? Protestants believe justification (being totally acceptable to God) doesn't require sanctification.

                Wayne Grudem, "Systematic Theology" [italics his]
                - p. 727 "Protestantism since the time of Martin Luther has insisted that justification does not change us internally and it is not a declaration based in any way on any goodness that we have in ourselves."

                So you are totally justified, totally acceptable to God, without the need of sanctification?

                -BHM
                For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post

                  Yes, this is what I believe. I didn't mean to say Protestants don't believe that God sanctifies. From what I understand, protestants separate the two whereby we do not.
                  How do you believe we separate them, other than to say that we are justified first, then those that are justified are being sanctified? We've been over this before, quite a few times.


                  Yes, but protestants don't think sanctification is part of justification itself, correct?
                  We are justified by faith, period....then sanctification starts.

                  Protestants believe justification (being totally acceptable to God) doesn't require sanctification.
                  We are justified by faith, scripture make this abundantly clear. How much sanctification does it take to be made acceptable to God?

                  You do realize that it is through Christ that one is made acceptable, correct?


                  So you are totally justified, totally acceptable to God, without the need of sanctification?

                  -BHM
                  See above....we are justified by faith. It is those that are justified that are being conformed to His image.

                  Tell us how long you think it takes and how much sanctification you think it takes to be made totally acceptable to God BHM.
                  ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                    How do you believe we separate them, other than to say that we are justified first, then those that are justified are being sanctified? We've been over this before, quite a few times.
                    I think Protestants believe justification and sanctification are two different things, that one can be justified without sanctification.

                    I believe that one is justified initially, but then requires God's sanctification along the way to persevere and to be in shape to "pass" on judgment day. So there's an initial justification, and an ongoing justification via sanctification and forgiveness. Otherwise, why the warnings about having to persevere to be saved, about having to have fruit on judgment day to enter the kingdom of heaven? Surely God has to work sanctification in them to "pass"...and "passing" means justification (not being condemned).

                    Sanctification seem to be required to see the Lord, to enter heaven...

                    Heb 12:14
                    Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

                    Rom 6:22
                    But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

                    Gal 6
                    7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
                    8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
                    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

                    We need discipline to avoid condemnation (i.e., to be justified, the opposite of condemned). Surely sanctification is needed...work God does in us to be justified.

                    1 Cor 11:32
                    32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

                    We are justified by faith, period....then sanctification starts.
                    Justified initially. Then the Lord has to work in us so we won't be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32).

                    God has to work in us to satisfy all of the passages I cited above.

                    We are justified by faith, scripture make this abundantly clear. How much sanctification does it take to be made acceptable to God?

                    You do realize that it is through Christ that one is made acceptable, correct?
                    Yes "dia" (through) but that doesn't mean by imputation only. Look at the above passages! We're saved through faith in Christ, and God then molds us to be acceptable, to not be condemned along with the world, to "pass" the judgment-day warnings. Look at Mt 12 cited below.

                    See above....we are justified by faith. It is those that are justified that are being conformed to His image.
                    Yes, so they'll "pass" on judgment day. See passages cited above.

                    Tell us how long you think it takes and how much sanctification you think it takes to be made totally acceptable to God BHM.
                    First let's get the facts straight, whether or not sanctification is required on judgment day or not. Then we can discuss things like that.

                    God has to make us good to be justified. Our words reflect the goodness inside.

                    Matthew 12
                    33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
                    34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
                    35 The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
                    36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
                    37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

                    God will make good hearts that will be visible via their words.

                    -BHM
                    For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post

                      I think Protestants believe justification and sanctification are two different things,
                      They are.

                      that one can be justified without sanctification.
                      Justification is via faith, not sanctification....the justified are being sanctified.

                      I believe that one is justified initially, but then requires God's sanctification along the way to persevere and to be in shape to "pass" on judgment day. So there's an initial justification,
                      No such thing as 'initial justification'....

                      Heb 12:14
                      Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
                      Sanctification also means 'set apart'.....so yes, unless one is set apart by God, you will not see the Lord.


                      Justified initially.
                      You are either justified or you aren't...there is no such thing as 'initially' being justified.

                      Then the Lord has to work in us so we won't be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32).
                      As I said....the justified are being sanctified.

                      Yes "dia" (through) but that doesn't mean by imputation only. Look at the above passages! We're saved through faith in Christ, and God then molds us to be acceptable, to not be condemned along with the world, to "pass" the judgment-day warnings. Look at Mt 12 cited below.
                      You are making something so simple, so complicated......we are basically saying the same thing....those that are justified are ALWAYS being sanctified...ALWAYS being conformed to His image.


                      Yes, so they'll "pass" on judgment day. See passages cited above.
                      We have already 'passed' from death into life.


                      First let's get the facts straight, whether or not sanctification is required on judgment day or not. Then we can discuss things like that.
                      No, we can discuss things like that right now.

                      God has to make us good to be justified.
                      Scripture doesn't teach what you just stated....we are justified by faith....THAT is how God justifies us...by FAITH.

                      ​​​​​​​
                      1. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
                      2. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
                      3. Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
                      4. Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
                      5. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
                      6. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
                      7. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
                      8. Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
                      9. Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
                      10. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
                      11. Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
                      12. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
                      13. Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
                      14. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
                      15. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
                      16. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
                      17. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
                      18. Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
                      19. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
                      20. Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
                      21. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
                      22. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
                      23. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
                      24. Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
                      25. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
                      26. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
                      27. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

                      ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 4Him View Post
                        They are.
                        Justification is via faith, not sanctification....the justified are being sanctified.
                        No such thing as 'initial justification'....
                        Sure there is. One is justified up front. But then we know that God still has to discipline us so we won't be condemned along with the world (i.e., so we'll be justified).
                        On the day of judgment, one will be justified or condemned by their words (Mt 12:37).
                        Matthew 12
                        33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
                        34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
                        (God makes the heart good...sure through faith, that's regeneration time).
                        35 The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
                        36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
                        37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
                        Again...
                        Gal 6
                        7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
                        8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
                        9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.




                        Sanctification also means 'set apart'.....so yes, unless one is set apart by God, you will not see the Lord.


                        According to BAGD, the standard Koine Gk lexion used worldwide, hagiazo (to sanctify) means "make holy, sanctify, consecrate, dedicate, purify".
                        Let's keep the entire range in mind.
                        Sure, sowing to the Spirit will set you apart. Required to reap eternal life per Gal 6:8. But it's not just a "setting aside"...it's an internal change. Sowing to the Spirit is an ongoing thing, Pauls says we're reap if we don't grow weary (v. 9). So this is a PROCESS, required so we'll reap eternal life. God's workmanship in us OVER TIME.
                        He still needs to discipline us so we won't be condemned (1 Cor 11:32). An ongoing process to justify (not be condemned).



                        You are either justified or you aren't...there is no such thing as 'initially' being justified.


                        Then why does the Lord still have to discipline us so that we won't be condemned? (i.e., to be justified)



                        As I said....the justified are being sanctified.



                        On judgment day, sanctification is required to be justified.
                        Gal 6
                        7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
                        8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
                        9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.




                        You are making something so simple, so complicated......we are basically saying the same thing....those that are justified are ALWAYS being sanctified...ALWAYS being conformed to His image.



                        So do you believe you need God's workmanship in you to "pass" those judgment day warnings?




                        We have already 'passed' from death into life.



                        Rom 6
                        19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. [God causes this...and it results in sanctification...]
                        20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
                        21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
                        22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. [the result of such sanctification is eternal life. That's how He gives us eternal life.]
                        23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [of course, all a free gift]


                        Mt 12
                        36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
                        37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


                        Gal 6
                        7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
                        8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
                        9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.





                        No, we can discuss things like that right now.



                        Scripture doesn't teach what you just stated....we are justified by faith....THAT is how God justifies us...by FAITH.



                        I just cited the scripture that does teach that.





                        What you posted
                        below doesn't go into precise timing of the details. Of course God sent Jesus to save believers. Of course righteousness comes through faith...that's not the details of the "how" God saves those who have faith.
                        I'm still waiting to see your interpretation of the passages I cited in defense of my views.
                        -BHM

                        Last edited by By His Mercy; 12-09-18, 04:27 PM. Reason: Had to edit a bunch, edited offline, got pasted in twice, then spaces got removed in some places, and multiplied in other places.
                        For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor 7:10)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
                          Sure there is. One is justified up front.



                          You will not find that teaching in Scripture.

                          But then we know that God still has to discipline us so we won't be condemned along with the world (i.e., so we'll be justified).




                          He chastens His children.Hebrews 12:6 ; Proverbs 3:11-12;


                          According to BAGD, the standard Koine Gk lexion used worldwide, hagiazo (to sanctify) means "make holy, sanctify, consecrate, dedicate, purify".
                          Let's keep the entire range in mind.
                          Sure, sowing to the Spirit will set you apart. Required to reap eternal life per Gal 6:8. But it's not just a "setting aside"...it's an internal change. Sowing to the Spirit is an ongoing thing, Paul says we're reap if we don't grow weary (v. 9). So this is a PROCESS, required so we'll reap eternal life. God's workmanship in us OVER TIME.
                          He still needs to discipline us so we won't be condemned (1 Cor 11:32). An ongoing process to justify (not be condemned).

                          Sanctification IS a PROCESS....justification is not.

                          Then why does the Lord still have to discipline us so that we won't be condemned? (i.e., to be justified)

                          Hebrews 12:6 ; Proverbs 3:11-12


                          On judgment day, sanctification is required to be justified.

                          AGAIN....the justified ARE ALWAYS being sanctified.


                          So do you believe you need God's workmanship in you to "pass" those judgment day warnings?


                          13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

                          I just cited the scripture that does teach that.

                          No, you didn't.
                          This below is a hodge podge that doesn't go into precise timing of the details.
                          Why do you need precise timing? God's timing is perfect.

                          Of course God sent Jesus to save believers. Of course righteousness comes through faith...that's not the details of the "how" God saves those who have faith.
                          The HOW is grace through faith....


                          I'm still waiting to see your interpretation of the passages I cited in defense of my views.
                          -BHM


                          Romans 6 goes right along with what I've been saying.....the justified, those no longer slaves to sin, are being sanctified.
                          Matt 12 simply states that your words reveal your character....for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks....
                          Gal 6 you reap what you sow....

                          Seems you are complicating something that isn't complicated at all.
                          ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
                            It seems from what you said it's a once-for-all imputed thing, and we're in no need of future grace to enter heaven. Is that correct?
                            When a person is BORN AGAIN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, they are INDWELLED BY the holy Spirit, and as a Saved, cleansed, and PERFECT BEFORE GOD person, they then begin the process of "Maturing in the faith" (because it was ALL INVISIBLE TO THEM BEFORE).

                            Romans 8:28, 29 applies: ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER for the Christian's Good, which is defines as becoming conformed to the Image of Jesus. The Christian can And WILL SIN (just like you do), but has an advocate as soon as it's confessed, and repented on.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post
                              But it's not just a "setting aside"...it's an internal change.
                              Many, Protestants included, keep claiming this, but I'm yet to see any evidence for this in the Bible. So can you demonstrate from the Bible that "sanctification" refers to a process involving inner change? Even Jesus was sanctified (as per John 17:19), mind you.

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