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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

    As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

    This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
    7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

    8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
    "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
    As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

    This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
    7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

    8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
    Before she travailed, (verse 7)

    Who is she? The answer is in the next verse.

    for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.(verse 8)

    Zion
    Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. (Ps. 119:41-42)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
      As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
      16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

      This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
      7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

      8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

      In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
      And yet catholics run to Rev 12 and claim thats mary too....who btw experienced pain in childbirth. So which is it? But Rev 12 isn't mary any more than Isa 66 is.
      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by boldirishlass View Post

        Before she travailed, (verse 7)

        Who is she? The answer is in the next verse.

        for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.(verse 8)

        Zion
        So I guess that you do not see this as a foreshadowing of the Blessed Mother or the Lord Jesus. Maybe we should question whether any of the prophecies, in Isaiah, pertain to Our Lord Jesus.
        "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

          And yet catholics run to Rev 12 and claim thats mary too....who btw experienced pain in childbirth. So which is it? But Rev 12 isn't mary any more than Isa 66 is.
          Here is a good, but brief, explanation for that,
          EDIT link violation
          Last edited by 4Him; 12-08-18, 02:55 PM.
          "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

            Here is a good, but brief, explanation for that,
            edit
            Post it here. I'm not chasing down links.
            Last edited by 4Him; 12-08-18, 02:55 PM.
            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

              Post it here. I'm not chasing down links.
              3040

              "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . [S]he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).

              There is a lot of debate about what the symbol of this Woman represents. Different aspects of the symbol point to different possible meanings for it.

              Unfortunately, most of the debate over what the Woman represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.

              The vision contains "fusion imagery," in which one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).

              Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered twenty-four because they are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles and twelve gates with the names of the twelve patriarchs.

              The beast from the sea in chapter 13 is a fusion of elements from the all four of the beasts the prophet Daniel saw emerge from the sea in chapter 7 of his book.

              Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).

              The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

              She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

              The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, "the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

              The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

              Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

              Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

              Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).
              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
                7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
                Isaiah is not referring to Mary. And your verse isn't referring to a woman. Please read in context.

                We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
                  As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
                  16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

                  This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
                  7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                  8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

                  In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
                  and was John the Baptist also conceived without original sin?
                  One of the ekklēsia

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
                    As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
                    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

                    This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
                    7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                    8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

                    In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
                    "This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception."
                    or

                    from Haydock's Bible commentary

                    Ver. 7. Before, &c. This relates to the conversion of the Gentiles, who were born as it were all on a sudden to the Church of God. Ch. --- Sion furnished the first preachers of the Gospel. H.

                    Ver. 8. Day. Shall a whole nation be born at once? Twelve fishermen effect the most surprising change in the manners of the world.

                    from the USCCB http://www.usccb.org/bible/isaiah/66
                    v7-9 The renewal of Zion is pictured in terms of a miraculous, instantaneous birth, facilitated by God’s intervention.

                    I guess Haydock and the USCCB forgot to mention Mary
                    One of the ekklēsia

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                      So I guess that you do not see this as a foreshadowing of the Blessed Mother or the Lord Jesus. Maybe we should question whether any of the prophecies, in Isaiah, pertain to Our Lord Jesus.
                      The context refers to a nation (v.8) and to Jerusalem (v.10) and points to the fulfillment of the prophecies of the future kingdom that will come suddenly when Christ returns (vv. 7-9).
                      Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. (Ps. 119:41-42)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tester View Post
                        "This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception."
                        or

                        from Haydock's Bible commentary

                        Ver. 7. Before, &c. This relates to the conversion of the Gentiles, who were born as it were all on a sudden to the Church of God. Ch. --- Sion furnished the first preachers of the Gospel. H.

                        Ver. 8. Day. Shall a whole nation be born at once? Twelve fishermen effect the most surprising change in the manners of the world.

                        from the USCCB http://www.usccb.org/bible/isaiah/66
                        v7-9 The renewal of Zion is pictured in terms of a miraculous, instantaneous birth, facilitated by God’s intervention.

                        I guess Haydock and the USCCB forgot to mention Mary
                        Another example where a Catholic apologist contradicts Catholicism, ie USCCB. Typical.

                        "Cults use Christian terminology, but redefine terms to suit their own belief and practices."-Dr. Walter Martin

                        Catholicism's doctrines of demons:

                        1TI 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
                        1TI 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tester View Post

                          and was John the Baptist also conceived without original sin?
                          it depends on your definition of original sin. original sin may mean only the sin of adam or as a consequence, the hereditary stain on account this first sin.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post

                            it depends on your definition of original sin. original sin may mean only the sin of adam or as a consequence, the hereditary stain on account this first sin.
                            exact same definition as the original post
                            One of the ekklēsia

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nan View Post

                              Isaiah is not referring to Mary. And your verse isn't referring to a woman. Please read in context.
                              But look at verse 7. Who is the man child and who is the woman who is not laboring? As you know Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the birth of Our Lord. Why should this verse be any different? Also, could not the verse have a duel meaning? One for that time period and another that is prophetic?
                              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                              Comment

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