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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tester View Post

    and was John the Baptist also conceived without original sin?
    Conceived without original sin, no. Born without original sin, yes. It is not a doctrine of the Church so one is free to believe that John the Baptist was born in original sin or not. Personally, I believe that he was not born with original sin.
    https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/St...e-Baptist.aspx
    "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

      But look at verse 7. Who is the man child and who is the woman who is not laboring? As you know Isaiah has many prophecies concerning the birth of Our Lord. Why should this verse be any different? Also, could not the verse have a duel meaning? One for that time period and another that is prophetic?


      from Haydock's Bible commentary

      Ver. 7. Before, &c. This relates to the conversion of the Gentiles, who were born as it were all on a sudden to the Church of God. Ch. --- Sion furnished the first preachers of the Gospel. H.

      Ver. 8. Day. Shall a whole nation be born at once? Twelve fishermen effect the most surprising change in the manners of the world.

      from the USCCB http://www.usccb.org/bible/isaiah/66
      v7-9 The renewal of Zion is pictured in terms of a miraculous, instantaneous birth, facilitated by God’s intervention.

      I guess Haydock and the USCCB forgot to mention Mary

      please provide the infallible interpretation from your Catholic Church
      if that doesn't exist;
      then please provide the authoritative interpretation from your Catholic Church.
      One of the ekklēsia

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

        Conceived without original sin, no. Born without original sin, yes. It is not a doctrine of the Church so one is free to believe that John the Baptist was born in original sin or not. Personally, I believe that he was not born with original sin.
        https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/St...e-Baptist.aspx
        so how many peoples do you believe were born without original sin?

        Mary, John the Baptist, Moses? , Enoch? , Mary's mother, Joseph?
        how many peoples do you believe?

        One of the ekklēsia

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tester View Post
          "This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception."
          or

          from Haydock's Bible commentary

          Ver. 7. Before, &c. This relates to the conversion of the Gentiles, who were born as it were all on a sudden to the Church of God. Ch. --- Sion furnished the first preachers of the Gospel. H.

          Ver. 8. Day. Shall a whole nation be born at once? Twelve fishermen effect the most surprising change in the manners of the world.

          from the USCCB http://www.usccb.org/bible/isaiah/66
          v7-9 The renewal of Zion is pictured in terms of a miraculous, instantaneous birth, facilitated by God’s intervention.

          I guess Haydock and the USCCB forgot to mention Mary
          If that is the case then we can say, from this verse, that Mary is the Mother of the Church?
          "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by boldirishlass View Post

            The context refers to a nation (v.8) and to Jerusalem (v.10) and points to the fulfillment of the prophecies of the future kingdom that will come suddenly when Christ returns (vv. 7-9).
            Cannot verse have a duel meaning?
            "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tester View Post



              from Haydock's Bible commentary

              Ver. 7. Before, &c. This relates to the conversion of the Gentiles, who were born as it were all on a sudden to the Church of God. Ch. --- Sion furnished the first preachers of the Gospel. H.

              Ver. 8. Day. Shall a whole nation be born at once? Twelve fishermen effect the most surprising change in the manners of the world.

              from the USCCB http://www.usccb.org/bible/isaiah/66
              v7-9 The renewal of Zion is pictured in terms of a miraculous, instantaneous birth, facilitated by God’s intervention.

              I guess Haydock and the USCCB forgot to mention Mary

              please provide the infallible interpretation from your Catholic Church
              if that doesn't exist;
              then please provide the authoritative interpretation from your Catholic Church.
              The Church has only mentioned about 7 verses/passages that it says that it can "only mean this and noting else." The Isaiah verses, that I mentioned, are not part of those verses.
              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tester View Post

                so how many peoples do you believe were born without original sin?

                Mary, John the Baptist, Moses? , Enoch? , Mary's mother, Joseph?
                how many peoples do you believe?
                Jesus, Mary, and John the Baptist.
                "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                  Cannot verse have a duel meaning?
                  please provide the infallible interpretation from your Catholic Church
                  if that doesn't exist;
                  then please provide the authoritative interpretation from your Catholic Church.
                  if that doesn't exist;
                  what stops Catholics from saying a verse means anything they want?
                  Last edited by tester; 12-09-18, 10:07 AM.
                  One of the ekklēsia

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                    Cannot verse have a duel meaning?
                    Regarding unbiblical dogmas? No it can't. The bible doesn't contain prophecies about an immaculate conception that never happened. Mary was a fallen sinner just like the rest of us.
                    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                    Comment


                    • #25


                      tester wrote,
                      please provide the infallible interpretation from your Catholic Church
                      if that doesn't exist;
                      then please provide the authoritative interpretation from your Catholic Church.
                      if that doesn't exist;
                      I have already addressed this. What makes you think that the Church has infallibly interpreted every single verse of Scripture? Could you point out an authoritative document where it states that the Church has interpreted every single verse of Scripture infallibly?

                      what stops Catholics from saying a verse means anything they want?
                      Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church.
                      "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                      Comment


                      • #26


                        Nondenom40 wrote,

                        The bible doesn't contain prophecies about an immaculate conception that never happened.
                        I provided one that could be argued in favor of the Immaculate Conception.

                        Mary was a fallen sinner just like the rest of us
                        Could you show, from the Bible, an instance of where she sinned? Do you believe that God does not have the power to preserve her from sin?
                        "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                          tester wrote,


                          I have already addressed this. What makes you think that the Church has infallibly interpreted every single verse of Scripture? Could you point out an authoritative document where it states that the Church has interpreted every single verse of Scripture infallibly?



                          Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church.
                          i did not say the Church has infallibly interpreted every single verse of Scripture.
                          I am asking YOU do back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture with an authoritative Catholic source.
                          One of the ekklēsia

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                            So I guess that you do not see this as a foreshadowing of the Blessed Mother or the Lord Jesus. Maybe we should question whether any of the prophecies, in Isaiah, pertain to Our Lord Jesus.
                            You aren't presenting that as a foreshadowing of Jesus' mother, but as a statement proving she was conceived without sin, isn't that right?

                            If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. C.H. Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • #29


                              tester wrote,

                              i did not say the Church has infallibly interpreted every single verse of Scripture.
                              But you insinuated as much.

                              I am asking YOU do back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture with an authoritative Catholic source.
                              1. Basically, what you are saying, is that you want an infallible interpretation from the Catholic Church concerning those verses.
                              2. If you want an "authoritative Catholic source" then I have already provided one - the Scriptures.
                              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Howie View Post
                                You aren't presenting that as a foreshadowing of Jesus' mother, but as a statement proving she was conceived without sin, isn't that right?
                                Both. A foreshadowing of Jesus' mother and a round -a- bout way of her not being conceived in original sin.
                                "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                                Comment

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