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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • nan wrote,

    I'm sure Jesus loved His mother.
    Since that is the case then should we not love her as well?

    There are, however, no passages in which Jesus exalted Mary or really mentioned her at all.
    During the Last Supper it states that they sang a few hymns then left. Those hymns, that they sung, were the Hallel Psalms(113-118) Here is Psalm 116:16,
    16 O LORD, truly I am thy servant; I am thy servant, and the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds.

    Our Lord sang about His mother in this verse.

    Contrary to the below mentioned scripture showing Jesus' priority and high regard for others.

    In Luke, Jesus tells he crowd, who was exalting Mary,”rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”

    In Matthew, Jesus said of Mary, sister of Lazarus, “Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
    No one is saying that he did not have a high regard for others but you also have to realize that Mary was especially chosen to be the mother of the Savior. Since that is the case then she was greatly exalted by God.


    "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

      Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of "charitoo." It uses "kecharitomene," while Ephesians 1:6 uses "echaritosen," which is a different form of the verb "charitoo." Echaritosen means "he graced (bestowed grace.) Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166.),
      I didn't ask for that. But i see you still can't provide a lexical definition of charitoo being defined as full of grace. And the lexical form in both Luke 1:28 and Eph 1:6 is the same; charitoo..Got anything else?

      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

        Where do Catholics believe that Mary is God? Could you cite the Catechism? If you cannot do that then you are just making it up that we consider Mary to be a goddess.
        You can stop arguing with yourself now.

        Originally posted by LambsServant
        Who else holds the Blessed Mother in higher regard than the Church of the East and the Church of the West? The only One that does is God.


        https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...79#post5768079

        I urge you to repent of your idolatry.
        "Cults use Christian terminology, but redefine terms to suit their own belief and practices."-Dr. Walter Martin

        Catholicism's doctrines of demons:

        1TI 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
        1TI 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by nan View Post

          So what. Luke 1:28 does not say 'full of grace'. It says highly favored ... χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

          From the Greek (charis): χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).




          And I never said you did. I asked for scripture and you gave me Catholic Answers. Why?
          As it has been explained to me the humanist scholar Erasmus translated kecharitomene as “most favored or highly favored” from the traditional translation of “full of grace“ or in Latin “gratia plena”.

          The phrase “pleres charitos” was used to describe St. Stephen’s martyrdom in Acts 6:8 and also used to describe the word made flesh, “plenum gratiae et veritatis”. But, none of these fit the tenses, voices, and senses found in kecharitomene. Most highly favored falls short and in some ways so does “full of grace.” Kecharitomene is a verb describing something that happened to a noun, in the past tense (past perfect participle of charitoo). The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker and having an effect today and will continue in the future. Hence when we could translate the phrase “Hail, Mary full of grace” to highly favored in the present we would need to add, “Always”. The Salvific grace was given to Mary prior to the annunciation remains at the annunciation and its radiance remains to this very day today.

          But, let’s add one more thing, the use of “Hail” as an address was the type of formal language used in the courts of kings and queens. The address to Mary was formal by all accounts; the angle was honoring Mary in his speech. Now, you must ask, why an angle from God honor a simple rural present woman, in a day and age when women are not honored among men; women were viewed a little more than servants and due no special honor.

          It remains then, “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect is still best English description of the words spoken by the archangel.

          So, if she wasn't full of Grace, being full of Jesus Christ, then are you saying Jesus Christ is not the Living Grace? If she is full of death, then was Jesus Christ issued out of death? If she wasn't full of the Living Grace, then Jesus Christ wasn't God as well as man?


          JoeT
          Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

          Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

            Luke 1:28 is not Scripture? That is what I gave you and and I gave you an explanation from Catholic Answers.
            Luke 1:28 does not say 'full of grace'. It says highly favored ... χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

            From the Greek (charis): χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

            .
            We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

              Since that is the case then should we not love her as well?
              We do. We just don't treat her as one above all women.




              We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                During the Last Supper it states that they sang a few hymns then left. Those hymns, that they sung, were the Hallel Psalms(113-118)
                Firstly, Scripture says that they had sung a (singular) hymn and went out to the Mount of Olives.

                Here is Psalm 116:16,

                O LORD, truly I am thy servant; I am thy servant, and the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds.

                Our Lord sang about His mother in this verse.
                And just how do you come to that conclusion?

                We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
                  nan wrote,

                  No one is saying that he did not have a high regard for others but you also have to realize that Mary was especially chosen to be the mother of the Savior. Since that is the case then she was greatly exalted by God.

                  And you must realize that as a Christian I would prefer to have some verse(s) in God's word which tells us Mary was greatly exalted by Jesus. Do you realize He barely talked with or about her?

                  We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                    But, let’s add one more thing, the use of “Hail” as an address was the type of formal language used in the courts of kings and queens. The address to Mary was formal by all accounts; the angle was honoring Mary in his speech. Now, you must ask, why an angle from God honor a simple rural present woman, in a day and age when women are not honored among men; women were viewed a little more than servants and due no special honor.

                    It remains then, “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect is still best English description of the words spoken by the archangel.

                    JoeT
                    Only problem with that is the angel never said 'hail, Mary'. Upon presenting himself to Mary, Gabriel said 'greetings, favored woman' or 'greetings, you who are highly favored.'

                    We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                      So, if she wasn't full of Grace, being full of Jesus Christ, then are you saying Jesus Christ is not the Living Grace? If she is full of death, then was Jesus Christ issued out of death? If she wasn't full of the Living Grace, then Jesus Christ wasn't God as well as man?


                      JoeT
                      I'm only going by what the word of God says. Mary was highly favored.

                      The rest of your posts is ridiculous.

                      We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                        As it has been explained to me the humanist scholar Erasmus translated kecharitomene as “most favored or highly favored” from the traditional translation of “full of grace“ or in Latin “gratia plena”.
                        Erasmus translated from the latin back to the greek? When it originated in the greek? And that greek decidedly does not mean 'full of grace'? Thats a lot of fumbling around for a humanist scholar isn't it?

                        The phrase “pleres charitos” was used to describe St. Stephen’s martyrdom in Acts 6:8 and also used to describe the word made flesh, “plenum gratiae et veritatis”. But, none of these fit the tenses, voices, and senses found in kecharitomene.
                        Why would it. Pleres charitos is the one phrase that DOES mean full of grace, not kecharitomene. You've just killed your own argument.

                        Most highly favored falls short and in some ways so does “full of grace.” Kecharitomene is a verb describing something that happened to a noun, in the past tense (past perfect participle of charitoo). The 'perfect' action of the participle is considered to have been completed before the time of the speaker and having an effect today and will continue in the future. Hence when we could translate the phrase “Hail, Mary full of grace” to highly favored in the present we would need to add, “Always”. The Salvific grace was given to Mary prior to the annunciation remains at the annunciation and its radiance remains to this very day today.
                        First, only the rcc translates Lk 1:28 hail, full of grace. And mary is nowhere in the text you inserted that. Secondly there was no salvific grace given to her at her conception. She came to faith in Jesus like everyone else does. At some point she simply believed. And see my post 359 for lexical definitions of charitoo.

                        But, let’s add one more thing, the use of “Hail” as an address was the type of formal language used in the courts of kings and queens. The address to Mary was formal by all accounts; the angle was honoring Mary in his speech. Now, you must ask, why an angle from God honor a simple rural present woman, in a day and age when women are not honored among men; women were viewed a little more than servants and due no special honor.
                        Hail, means rejoice, be glad. I've explained this here as well. You might want to read the thread.

                        It remains then, “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect is still best English description of the words spoken by the archangel.
                        No, its not. The lexical definition of charitoo is favored, indued with grace....

                        So, if she wasn't full of Grace, being full of Jesus Christ, then are you saying Jesus Christ is not the Living Grace? If she is full of death, then was Jesus Christ issued out of death? If she wasn't full of the Living Grace, then Jesus Christ wasn't God as well as man?


                        JoeT
                        Appeal to emotion. Nothing more.
                        Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by nan View Post

                          Only problem with that is the angel never said 'hail, Mary'. Upon presenting himself to Mary, Gabriel said 'greetings, favored woman' or 'greetings, you who are highly favored.'
                          The problem you seem to have is that even the King James translates cha¨ªr¨* as "hail". Is the King James wrong as well?

                          JoeT
                          Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                          Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                            The problem you seem to have is that even the King James translates cha¨ªr¨* as "hail". Is the King James wrong as well?

                            JoeT
                            I'm not arguing about the definition of 'hail'.

                            You posted that “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect is still best English description of the words spoken by the archangel.

                            Besides the fact that in his greeting Gabriel never addressed her by name he never, ever said she was"'full of grace". Neither is Mary ever said to be the "mother of God". Your prayer to Mary is not biblical.
                            We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                              The problem you seem to have is that even the King James translates cha¨ªr¨* as "hail". Is the King James wrong as well?

                              JoeT
                              So what? It simply means rejoice or be glad. Youre reading too much into the word. Seems to happen a lot in catholicsim.
                              Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by nan View Post

                                I'm not arguing about the definition of 'hail'.

                                You posted that “Hail, Mary full of Grace”, while not perfect is still best English description of the words spoken by the archangel.

                                Besides the fact that in his greeting Gabriel never addressed her by name he never, ever said she was"'full of grace". Neither is Mary ever said to be the "mother of God". Your prayer to Mary is not biblical.
                                Private interpretation [2 Peter 1:20] and selective reading will get you anywhere you dream of, except for one place.

                                Recall, the address was directly to Mary:
                                "And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary." [Luke 1:26-27]
                                The address of the angel Gabriel was directly to Mary, a virgin whose name was Mary, espoused to Joseph. That only identifies one person in my book. Then, according to Luke, after identifying who is being addressed by Gabriel, the angel says:
                                "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." [Luke 1:28]
                                So, to say "Hail Mary full of grace" is not only proper, it recognizes an event never, ever, repeated in Sacred Scripture, New or Old Testament.


                                Transliteration chairo: aka "HAIL"
                                1. to rejoice, be glad
                                2. to rejoice exceedingly
                                3. to be well, thrive
                                4. in salutations, hail!
                                5. at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute Source:
                                Hail is not only a formal salutation it displays the excitement of Gabriel that he is to make the annunciation to the Ever Virgin Mary. He is excited in his unique announcement, his Lord will be born of this woman, Gabriel finds himself addressing the Mother of God.

                                Say, did they leave out Luke, 2 Peter 1:20 along with James 2:20 from the New-Protester¡¯s-Read-Along-Bible?

                                JoeT
                                Last edited by JoeT; 01-13-19, 05:07 PM.
                                Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                                Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

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