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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • Nondenom40
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:


    "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8]
    "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
    The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis

    The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.

    Duh, its different because they are different words! They aren't the same so why would you compare them in the first place? And i read most of the article and its the same ole same ole. All the article does is regurgitate the same catholic eisegesis. Not a single lexicon cited. Why are catholics so petrified of lexicons? Oh ya, because they DON'T say what you want them to say.

    Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.
    Because thats actually what the word means....full of grace. If mary were full of grace we'd see pleres charitos in Luke 1:28. We don't.

    But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always been full of grace"
    Now all you have to do is supply a lexicon that says this. But i've asked repeatedly for this very thing and all i get are crickets. We know why.

    To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!
    Said the bible nowhere. You've obviously never read Romans 5.

    No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
    Shore up your skills in Greek

    JoeT
    Mary is favored, thats all. Its not a title. Its not a name. The angel even clarified in vs 30....you've found FAVOR with God. He didn't say 'youre sinless'. See the difference? Probably not.

    Leave a comment:


  • nan
    replied
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    He places us in the Scripture?
    Is that what mica said?

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:
    "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8] "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
    The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis
    The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


    Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

    But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always beenfull of grace"

    To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


    No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
    Shore up your skills in Greek JoeT
    updated (made up) by the RCC

    your link is to a catholic website

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post
    You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:
    "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8] "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
    The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis
    The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


    Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

    But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always beenfull of grace"

    To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


    No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
    Shore up your skills in Greek JoeT
    we know that is what catholics think of God's word. to them the RCC words are truth, not God's word.


    Last edited by mica; 01-29-19, 05:18 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
    We post scholars. They post opinions then think their opinion supersedes greek scholarship. And yes, we have posted numerous proofs that decimate their position but they can't have mother church being crushed under the weight of opposing scholarship. So, they bury their heads in the ground and pop back up later when the coast is clear only to bring the very same thing up again in a week.
    and that it supersedes God's word.

    sometimes every day...

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied


    Originally posted by mica View Post
    then that's one more thing that they believe, that isn't true.

    those who are His (born again) believe that because they believe His word. They trust in His word, catholics believe in the words of men.

    the only ones trying to fool God are those who aren't His. Those who are born again, are born again by God. He places us into His church (read scripture). He doesn't fool Himself - but catholics seem to think He does.
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    He places us in the Scripture?
    catholics have a problem understanding scripture - and posts.



    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by mica View Post

    then that's one more thing that they believe, that isn't true.

    those who are His (born again) believe that because they believe His word. They trust in His word, catholics believe in the words of men.

    the only ones trying to fool God are those who aren't His. Those who are born again, are born again by God. He places us into His church (read scripture). He doesn't fool Himself - but catholics seem to think He does.

    He places us in the Scripture?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by nan View Post

    Your Church may have been telling that lie for two-thousand years, but Jesus never taught that baptism is salvific.

    Scripture says different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied


    Calsgal wrote,

    1) Catholics are clueless if their sin is "venial " or "mortal" ..they have to die to know for sure
    Here is a list of mortal sins that will keep one out of Heaven,
    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    • Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, [20] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, [21] envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    • Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. [4] Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. [5] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [6] Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
    2) The Mercy and Justice of God was satisfied at the cross...where Christ became the eternal propitiation for sin ... He is the Mercy Seat where men go to find Mercy
    But one can walk away from Our Lord and commit sin. in 2 Sam 12:13-14 we read the following:
    13. And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. 14. Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

    We see where God forgave the sin but David still had to undergo the punishment due to sin.

    3) The cross vindicated the righteousness of God.. the RC make the cross of Christ of no effect ...
    Not at all.

    Not really ..there is no teaching of Purgatory by Christ or the apostles or disciples in the NT.
    Matt. 12:32
    32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

    When Our Lord said that the sin against of the Holy Ghost would not be forgiven in "this world or in the world to come" is He not suggesting that some sins can be forgiven in the "world to come"? Since He is suggesting this then the questions that have to be asked are: How does this happen and where does this forgiveness take place? The only answer is Purgatory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied

    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


    He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
    Because behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed
    (Luke 1:48).

    The binding apostolic word God states
    that
    there is no partiality with God (Rom 2:11).

    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    There are no contradictions in the word of God.
    Correct.

    However having regard for Mary's status is partiality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by nan View Post

    Wow. You actually believe we can fool God?
    Sounds like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by nan View Post

    Nope. You brought it up. Own it. Where is baptism mentioned in that passage? Let's start from there .. .
    I'm not going to go around in circles. I presented that Catholics interpret that verse to mean Baptism. What do you think that it means?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post



    He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
    Because behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed
    (Luke 1:48).

    The binding apostolic word God states
    that
    there is no partiality with God (Rom 2:11).

    Did Luke's Mary have the same problem as Luke's angel?




    What I believe is irrelevant.

    Please explain those contradictions in the inerrant word of God.


    1. You do not believe that the angel was a messenger of God?
    2. There are no contradictions in the word of God.

    Leave a comment:


  • illini1959
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:


    "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8]
    "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
    The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis

    The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


    Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

    But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always been full of grace"

    To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


    No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
    Shore up your skills in Greek

    JoeT
    Pretend I'm holding a scale.

    In one hand I'm holding another catholic blog. <Speaking of propoganda...>


    In the other I'm holding a lexical definition from a proven source. <didn't realize those definitions went out of date>

    Which one am I going to hold in higher esteem.......?

    Prove this is incorrect:

    Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487(xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).


    I'll shore up my skills in Greek when you shore up yours in studying scripture and not blogs.

    And I know Gabriel (all angels) are messengers.




    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

    A. No. Nowhere did I even hint the Gospel of Luke isn't credible and you know it. Your resources are what I cited as not credible and I believe you know that and are just trying to twist things up.

    B. I have no 'traditions among men' and would like to know where that even comes from. Please don't confuse my beliefs with yours.

    Moving on -

    How can a lexical definition taken from the verse in question be 'half the story'?

    Because it doesn't 'fit' what's been taught to you? Since you don't cite anything, that entire last statement is your opinion and that's it.



    Find me the word 'full' of rather than 'favored'. Read it and weep.

    ps: again - 'full of grace' is used twice in scripture. Neither time does it refer to Mary.

    But we've already posted about that.

    You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:


    "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8]
    "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
    The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis

    The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


    Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

    But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always been full of grace"

    To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


    No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
    Shore up your skills in Greek

    JoeT

    Leave a comment:

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