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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    Both. A foreshadowing of Jesus' mother and a round -a- bout way of her not being conceived in original sin.
    All sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12).
    If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. C.H. Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

      Conceived without original sin, no. Born without original sin, yes. It is not a doctrine of the Church so one is free to believe that John the Baptist was born in original sin or not. Personally, I believe that he was not born with original sin.
      https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/St...e-Baptist.aspx
      All sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12).

      If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. C.H. Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
        As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,

        16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

        This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,

        7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

        8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

        In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
        Cities in antiquity were thought of as young virgin women. Similar to the way we identify ships in terms of feminine pronouns today. Many cities are still thought of in terms of feminine pronouns. The city of Jerusalem was called the daughter of Zion. Israel then was referred to as the “daughters” of Zion. The following are examples: 4 Kings 19:21; Psalms 9:14; Isaias 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11 Jer 4:31 Jeremias 6:2; 23; Lamentations 1:6; 2:1; 2:4; 2:8; 2:10; 2:13; 2:18; 4:22; Micheas 1:13; 4:8; 4:10; 4:13 Sophonias 3:14; Zacharias 2:10; 9:9; 8:19; 2:7. Sometimes you'll find it shortened to simply "daughter."

        In the King James bible you’ll read “daughter of Zion” in the DRV you’ll read “daughter of Zion” or “daughter of Jerusalem”. The understanding in antiquity was that cities were personalized as young virgin woman, or simply feminine pronouns. The word “woman” then was used metaphorically or in a spiritual sense to be an entire people of Israel, e.g., "Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house." [Psalms 44:11]

        We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion, the Old Testament religion of Judaism. Jesus said that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet. But that she will speak when His “hour” has come. And we search and search through all the ministries of Christ till last, His hour comes. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidômi in Greek: to give over into (one's) power or use) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church.

        The hour has come; "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." And Jesus said "do this in commemoration of me".

        JoeT
        Last edited by JoeT; 12-09-18, 11:40 AM.
        Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

        Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

          tester wrote,



          But you insinuated as much.



          1. Basically, what you are saying, is that you want an infallible interpretation from the Catholic Church concerning those verses.
          2. If you want an "authoritative Catholic source" then I have already provided one - the Scriptures.
          you have interpreted what i posted incorrectly
          I am asking YOU to back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture with an authoritative Catholic source.
          One of the ekklēsia

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by JoeT View Post

            Cities in antiquity were thought of as young virgin women. Similar to the way we identify ships in terms of feminine pronouns today. Many cities are still thought of in terms of feminine pronouns. The city of Jerusalem was called the daughter of Zion. Israel then was referred to as the “daughters” of Zion. The following are examples: 4 Kings 19:21; Psalms 9:14; Isaias 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11 Jer 4:31 Jeremias 6:2; 23; Lamentations 1:6; 2:1; 2:4; 2:8; 2:10; 2:13; 2:18; 4:22; Micheas 1:13; 4:8; 4:10; 4:13 Sophonias 3:14; Zacharias 2:10; 9:9; 8:19; 2:7. Sometimes you'll find it shortened to simply "daughter."

            In the King James bible you’ll read “daughter of Zion” in the DRV you’ll read “daughter of Zion” or “daughter of Jerusalem”. The understanding in antiquity was that cities were personalized as young virgin woman, or simply feminine pronouns. The word “woman” then was used metaphorically or in a spiritual sense to be an entire people of Israel, e.g., "Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house." [Psalms 44:11]

            We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion, the Old Testament religion of Judaism. Jesus said that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet. But that she will speak when His “hour” has come. And we search and search through all the ministries of Christ till last, His hour comes. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidômi in Greek: to give over into (one's) power or use) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church.

            The hour has come; "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." And Jesus said "do this in commemoration of me".

            JoeT
            Yes. Totally agree. Good post.
            "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Howie View Post
              All sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12).
              But does "all" mean all? Let's take a look at a few examples:
              Romans 15:14
              “I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

              I thought that only God was all knowledgeable.

              Luke 2:1
              “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.”

              Did he collect taxes from Australia also?

              We see that "all" does not mean "all" even from a biblical standpoint. If that is the case then the Catholic doctrine of being sinless still holds.
              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tester View Post

                you have interpreted what i posted incorrectly
                I am asking YOU to back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture with an authoritative Catholic source.
                The Scripture is not an authoritative Catholic source? You guys say that we do not need to the Church to interpret Scripture for us but then, when we interpret Scripture for ourselves, you want us to provide an "authoritative Catholic source" for our interpretation. Unbelievable.
                "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                  The Scripture is not an authoritative Catholic source? You guys say that we do not need to the Church to interpret Scripture for us but then, when we interpret Scripture for ourselves, you want us to provide an "authoritative Catholic source" for our interpretation. Unbelievable.
                  all the words are important

                  I am asking YOU to back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture
                  One of the ekklēsia

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Lamb's Servant started a topic Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet


                    12-08-18, 06:43 AM
                    Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

                    As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,
                    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

                    This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,
                    7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                    8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


                    In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.

                    This verse in Isaiah 66:7 is referring to the holy body of Christ the chosen 144,000 who will be kings and priests, born unto the Woman(heavenly Jerusalem above who is our mother and the wife and bride of the Lamb as it is written in Rev. She only bares spiritual children who will be the man child(children of God, one new man in Christ) who are birthed and caught up to God's throne in what we call the Rapture.
                    Mother Mary was conceived in the natural way so when God sent His Word/His Son to be made FLESH, it was through Mary's flesh, yet NOT OF Joseph of the fallen nature/bloodline(unclean spirit being the devils offspring as all men through Adam are), that is why he was not Jesus' father, because the Bloodline of Jesus was conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT making Jesus the Son of God, the Seed/Sperma of God!. It is our flesh that fails us, but it is due to the spirit we are of that causes us to fall for temptations and reject God's Word to live by.
                    The Barren Woman in Isaiah and Rev. is heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb and our mother, as we are born of the Seed of God whom the Seed is Christ.
                    Isa 54:1
                    54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
                    KJV

                    Gal 4:25-28

                    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

                    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

                    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

                    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
                    KJV

                    Isa 66:6-10

                    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

                    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

                    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

                    10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
                    KJV

                    Rev 12:1-6
                    12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

                    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

                    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

                    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

                    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
                    KJV

                    Rev 21:9-12

                    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

                    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

                    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
                    KJV

                    Rev 14:1-5
                    14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

                    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

                    3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

                    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

                    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

                    KJV

                    Heb 12:22-23

                    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

                    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

                    KJV


                    The purpose of my posts are not to cause bicker or division, but to show truth from the scripture for edifying of the soul. It does not matter what we think, it is what God's Word says that matters.

                    Comment


                    • #40


                      tester wrote,

                      all the words are important
                      So what the Catholic Church says is important? Is it important enough to believe?


                      I am asking YOU to back up YOUR personal[B] interpretation of Scripture
                      And I have shown why I believe what I believe in the OP.
                      "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                        Cannot verse have a duel meaning?
                        Isa 28:9-10 — "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"

                        1Co 2:13b — ...
                        the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparingspiritual things with spiritual.
                        Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. (Ps. 119:41-42)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by afaithfulone4u View Post

                          This verse in Isaiah 66:7 is referring to the holy body of Christ the chosen 144,000 who will be kings and priests, born unto the Woman(heavenly Jerusalem above who is our mother and the wife and bride of the Lamb as it is written in Rev. She only bares spiritual children who will be the man child(children of God, one new man in Christ) who are birthed and caught up to God's throne in what we call the Rapture.
                          Mother Mary was conceived in the natural way so when God sent His Word/His Son to be made FLESH, it was through Mary's flesh, yet NOT OF Joseph of the fallen nature/bloodline(unclean spirit being the devils offspring as all men through Adam are), that is why he was not Jesus' father, because the Bloodline of Jesus was conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT making Jesus the Son of God, the Seed/Sperma of God!. It is our flesh that fails us, but it is due to the spirit we are of that causes us to fall for temptations and reject God's Word to live by.
                          The Barren Woman in Isaiah and Rev. is heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb and our mother, as we are born of the Seed of God whom the Seed is Christ.
                          Isa 54:1
                          54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
                          KJV

                          Gal 4:25-28

                          25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

                          26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

                          27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

                          28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
                          KJV

                          Isa 66:6-10

                          6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

                          7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

                          8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

                          9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

                          10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
                          KJV

                          Rev 12:1-6
                          12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

                          2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

                          3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

                          4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

                          5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                          6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
                          KJV

                          Rev 21:9-12

                          9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

                          10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

                          11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

                          12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
                          KJV

                          Rev 14:1-5
                          14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

                          2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

                          3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

                          4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

                          5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

                          KJV

                          Heb 12:22-23

                          22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

                          23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

                          KJV

                          Verse 7 explicitly says that the woman would not labor before the man child was born. Who was the man child that was born and who is the woman?
                          "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by boldirishlass View Post

                            Isa 28:9-10 — "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"

                            1Co 2:13b — ...
                            the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparingspiritual things with spiritual.
                            So is that a yes or a no?
                            "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                              Verse 7 explicitly says that the woman would not labor before the man child was born. Who was the man child that was born and who is the woman?
                              The woman is Jerusalem or Israel; not Mary:

                              You hold the extreme minority interpretation of theses verses
                              One of the ekklēsia

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                                Yes. Totally agree. Good post.
                                Joe T disagreed with you
                                He is telling you that the woman is a city , not Mary
                                One of the ekklēsia

                                Comment

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