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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

    You can't take verses out of context and try to make them be something they aren't and you can't take just pieces of them to do the same.

    Is 66:7-9

    “Before she travailed, she brought forth;
    Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
    8 “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
    Can a land be born in one day?
    Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
    As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
    9 “Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
    “Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?” says your God.

    What do the rest of the verses say?

    Context is your friend.
    Would that apply to all of the prophecies that Isaiah gave concerning the birth of Our Lord? Is. 66:7-9 cannot be ruled out as a prophecy concerning Mary and the birth of Our Lord.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post


    Your own Bishops do not teach that Rev 12 is Mary ....
    Rev 12 does not have an official Church teaching. One certainly can interpret the "woman" to be the Blessed Mother.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by nan View Post

    If John was conceived in sin, what happened between that time and his birth to make him sinless?
    Luke 1:41-44 New International Version (NIV)

    41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women,and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

    He encountered Jesus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Desperation being demonstrated.
    How is it desperation?

    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    Did you read what the good Bishops had to say? Are you prepared to acknowledge that the Woman in the Apocalypse is both the old nation of Israel and the new nation - and I'm not talking the geopolitical nation of Israel. Why would "woman" in Apocalypse 12:1-6, and the woman in John 1:4. and the woman John 19:26, and the promise made to the woman in Genesis 3:15? The personification of the daughter of Zion is Mary thereby the Church and the new Israel.

    So, the Bishops teach what?

    JoeT



    They plainly let us know it was a vision, and that they were pretty clueless on which it was... what we do know is John said he saw a SIGN not Mary who we knew well ...

    What I know is, it is not Mary or John would have said I saw Mary

    Leave a comment:


  • Johan
    replied
    Originally posted by LeafByNiggle View Post

    The author is speaking of one particular translation, but then goes on to say:
    The interpretation of this text has a curious history. The Hebrew identifies the one who will crush the serpent’s head with the neuter “it,” which seems to imply the offspring in general. The Greek LXX uses the masculine pronoun, indicating an individual offspring of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. The Fathers interpreted this as a Messianic promise. St Jerome, in his Latin Vulgate, also uses the masculine pronoun, ipse, for the one who will bruise the head of the serpent.
    So he is listing the full range of historical interpretations and translations, not just endorsing one interpretation.
    Well, the Hebrew text is no translation. Genesis was written in Hebrew. And their "observation" is ungrammatical, since there is no neuter gender in Hebrew. But it is interesting to note that they claim that the Vulgate has become corrupted at some point in time, since it in its presently available version contains a feminine pronoun (ipsa):

    Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius : ipsa conteret caput tuum, et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus. (Gen. 3:15)

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Johan View Post

    From that text:

    The Hebrew identifies the one who will crush the serpent's head with the neuter "it," which seems to imply the offspring in general.

    That is impossible since there is no neuter gender in Hebrew (only masculine and feminine gender). So much for their "exegesis." The Hebrew pronoun in that verse is in fact masculine.
    The author is speaking of one particular translation, but then goes on to say:
    The interpretation of this text has a curious history. The Hebrew identifies the one who will crush the serpent’s head with the neuter “it,” which seems to imply the offspring in general. The Greek LXX uses the masculine pronoun, indicating an individual offspring of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. The Fathers interpreted this as a Messianic promise. St Jerome, in his Latin Vulgate, also uses the masculine pronoun, ipse, for the one who will bruise the head of the serpent.
    So he is listing the full range of historical interpretations and translations, not just endorsing one interpretation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Johan
    replied
    Originally posted by LeafByNiggle View Post
    Here is a very complete document on the reasoning behind the 1854 proclamation of the Immaculate Conception by Fr. Denis Vincent Wiseman, O.P., at University of Dayton:

    https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/_resou...bilis-deus.pdf

    From that text:

    The Hebrew identifies the one who will crush the serpent's head with the neuter "it," which seems to imply the offspring in general.

    That is impossible since there is no neuter gender in Hebrew (only masculine and feminine gender). So much for their "exegesis." The Hebrew pronoun in that verse is in fact masculine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Here is a very complete document on the reasoning behind the 1854 proclamation of the Immaculate Conception by Fr. Denis Vincent Wiseman, O.P., at University of Dayton:

    https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/_resou...bilis-deus.pdf


    Leave a comment:


  • Stepping Heavenward
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    Did you read what the good Bishops had to say? Are you prepared to acknowledge that the Woman in the Apocalypse is both the old nation of Israel and the new nation - and I'm not talking the geopolitical nation of Israel. Why would "woman" in Apocalypse 12:1-6, and the woman in John 1:4. and the woman John 19:26, and the promise made to the woman in Genesis 3:15? The personification of the daughter of Zion is Mary thereby the Church and the new Israel.

    So, the Bishops teach what?

    JoeT



    Why would woman....what?

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

    12:1-6*] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from (Gen37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah(rev12:5) ) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (rev12;6, 13-17); cf.Is 50:1) 66:7, Jer 50:12) This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.
    http://usccb.org/bible/revelation/12
    Did you read what the good Bishops had to say? Are you prepared to acknowledge that the Woman in the Apocalypse is both the old nation of Israel and the new nation - and I'm not talking the geopolitical nation of Israel. Why would "woman" in Apocalypse 12:1-6, and the woman in John 1:4. and the woman John 19:26, and the promise made to the woman in Genesis 3:15? The personification of the daughter of Zion is Mary thereby the Church and the new Israel.

    So, the Bishops teach what?

    JoeT




    Leave a comment:


  • thatcatholicguy
    replied
    Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

    Show us the words sanctifying grace in scripture.
    Show us the word "Trinity" in Scripture.

    Show us the word "Omnipresence" in Scripture.

    Show us the word "Hypostatic Union" in Scripture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    Which one and what does the good Bishop have to say?

    JoeT
    12:1-6*] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from (Gen37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah(rev12:5) ) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (rev12;6, 13-17); cf.Is 50:1) 66:7, Jer 50:12) This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.
    http://usccb.org/bible/revelation/12

    Leave a comment:


  • illini1959
    replied
    Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

    It doesn't. But they think if they throw in enough rc mumbo jumbo and made up doctrine we'll accept it as legit. We don't.
    I know. Sad

    Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post
    The Holy Spirit sanctifies us through the gift of grace. This is Sanctifying Grace which is the "grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us - of making us perfect, holy, and Christlike." Sin is a deficiency in perfection and since god is all-perfect, god and sin cannot exist together.
    I noticed this quote but there's no citation. I know it's not scripture. You probably know where it's from.

    I see why rcs so often quote anything but scripture.

    Scripture doesn't contain the doctrine they believe/follow.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nondenom40
    replied
    Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

    This proves JTB was sinless how?
    It doesn't. But they think if they throw in enough rc mumbo jumbo and made up doctrine we'll accept it as legit. We don't.

    Leave a comment:

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