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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • Originally posted by mica View Post
    then that's one more thing that they believe, that isn't true.

    those who are His (born again) believe that because they believe His word. They trust in His word, catholics believe in the words of men.

    the only ones trying to fool God are those who aren't His. Those who are born again, are born again by God. He places us into His church (read scripture). He doesn't fool Himself - but catholics seem to think He does.
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    He places us in the Scripture?
    catholics have a problem understanding scripture - and posts.



    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
      We post scholars. They post opinions then think their opinion supersedes greek scholarship. And yes, we have posted numerous proofs that decimate their position but they can't have mother church being crushed under the weight of opposing scholarship. So, they bury their heads in the ground and pop back up later when the coast is clear only to bring the very same thing up again in a week.
      and that it supersedes God's word.

      sometimes every day...

      "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

      The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
        You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:
        "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8] "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
        The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis
        The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


        Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

        But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always beenfull of grace"

        To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


        No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
        Shore up your skills in Greek JoeT
        we know that is what catholics think of God's word. to them the RCC words are truth, not God's word.


        Last edited by mica; 01-29-19, 05:18 AM.
        "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

        The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

          You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:
          "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8] "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
          The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis
          The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.


          Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.

          But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always beenfull of grace"

          To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!


          No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
          Shore up your skills in Greek JoeT
          updated (made up) by the RCC

          your link is to a catholic website
          "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

          The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

            He places us in the Scripture?
            Is that what mica said?
            We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

              You've had your head buried too deep in the propaganda. Read the following - not long. It has been mentioned here before, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb. Your argument is out of date, you might try updating, read the link. I'll paste in just the pertinent part.:


              "Pleres charistos" [Acts 6:8]
              "Kecharitomene" [Luke 1:28]
              The word “grace” came from the Greek word charis

              The word used in Acts 6:8 referring to Stephen is a different word from the one referring to Mary.

              Duh, its different because they are different words! They aren't the same so why would you compare them in the first place? And i read most of the article and its the same ole same ole. All the article does is regurgitate the same catholic eisegesis. Not a single lexicon cited. Why are catholics so petrified of lexicons? Oh ya, because they DON'T say what you want them to say.

              Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" literally "filled up with grace" meaning at that moment, he was full of grace.
              Because thats actually what the word means....full of grace. If mary were full of grace we'd see pleres charitos in Luke 1:28. We don't.

              But the term used to Mary is "Kecharitomene" perfect passive participle of "charitoo" [charitoo (verb) comes from the same Greek root of “charis” - which means “grace” and charitoó means to fill or endow with grace] or in other words: "Hail, one who has always been full of grace"
              Now all you have to do is supply a lexicon that says this. But i've asked repeatedly for this very thing and all i get are crickets. We know why.

              To make it more clearer, "kecharitomene" is the perfect passive participle tense of the verb meaning "to fill with grace," Because it is in the perfect participle tense, it means that Mary was already filled with grace and there is no room for sin in her before the Annunciation, the implication being that she was the immaculate!
              Said the bible nowhere. You've obviously never read Romans 5.

              No other character in the bible was called kecharitomene except for Mary. The Angel Gabriel is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. SOURCE
              Shore up your skills in Greek

              JoeT
              Mary is favored, thats all. Its not a title. Its not a name. The angel even clarified in vs 30....you've found FAVOR with God. He didn't say 'youre sinless'. See the difference? Probably not.

              Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                Mary is favored, thats all. Its not a title. Its not a name.
                So, every woman you know gave birth to Christ? It's a common thing, right? What do you mean "that's all"? Sure its a name it the name of the Mother of God.

                JoeT
                Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                  So, every woman you know gave birth to Christ? It's a common thing, right? What do you mean "that's all"? Sure its a name it the name of the Mother of God.

                  JoeT
                  Emphasis should always be on Christ.




                  So, if she wasn't full of Grace, being full of Jesus Christ, then are you saying Jesus Christ is not the Living Grace? If she is full of death, then was Jesus Christ issued out of death? If she wasn't full of the Living Grace, then Jesus Christ wasn't God as well as man? When the fetus of Jesus Christ was in the womb of Mary, was she not "full of Grace"? Was she not full of His Salvation. Was she not full of Eternal Life.

                  by your way of thinking, when she expelled baby Jesus out of her body does that mean all that grace, salvation and eternal life was expelled as well?
                  Just wondering if you were going to address this ^
                  2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                  Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                    So, every woman you know gave birth to Christ?
                    Non sequitur, irrational appeal to emotion.
                    It's a common thing, right?
                    Abraham was asked to sacrifice his own son. Does that happen every day? Noah built an ark. Thats a common thing isn't it? And on and on and on.
                    What do you mean "that's all"?
                    She was favored, thats what the text says. Know what it doesn't say??? FULL OF GRACE. Thats what it doesn't say.
                    Sure its a name it the name of the Mother of God.

                    JoeT
                    God has no mother. God needs no mother.

                    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mica View Post



                      catholics have a problem understanding scripture - and posts.


                      I went and re-read, your post. My mistake. It is true that when we are born again(baptism) we become members of His Church.
                      "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                        Non sequitur, irrational appeal to emotion.
                        actually it does follow rather logically, nor is it an appeal to emotion. Rather, it appeals to common sense. If there is nothing special about giving birth to God, then what was issued out of Mary was unnoteworthy.

                        Abraham was asked to sacrifice his own son. Does that happen every day? Noah built an ark. Thats a common thing isn't it? And on and on and on.
                        And we honor Abraham as well of Isaac for their role.

                        She was favored, thats what the text says. Know what it doesn't say??? FULL OF GRACE. Thats what it doesn't say.
                        God has no mother. God needs no mother.
                        Favored in more ways than you are able to admit.

                        Jesus Christ is God - do you deny Jesus Christ is God?
                        Mary is the Mother of Jesus - do you deny Mary was Jesus Christ's Mother?
                        Then to deny Mary is Mother of God is to deny either or both of the above.



                        JoeT

                        Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                        Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                          Emphasis should always be on Christ.
                          How is the stress not on Jesus Christ if we speak of Mary as the Mother of God? God is the son of Mary. The entire focal point of Mary is the Person of Christ. Maybe we could believe Scripture better if Mary was the way every other woman was considered in the first century, sinful, lustful and ignorant with no more rights in the community than a child. This is the Mary of the Adoptionist who contends that Jesus Christ was merely the adopted Son of God. He was the ordinary human prodigy of Joseph and Mary but when He was baptized the Holy Spirit claimed his body.

                          How is it the weight of the topic removed from Jesus Christ when we speak of His humanity which was in every way like us except sin without Mary? Jesus Christ has two natures, God and man uniquely and inseparably joined which doesn’t happen without Mary. Else, there is Docetism which draws it name from the Greek dokein which means “to seem”. Christ wasn’t real, that is he was merely a vision of a man thus Mary was nothing but background material, she wasn’t part of God’s plan - rather an obstacle for God to be ignored. He wasn’t really born in the same sense a real men are born, rather he simply appears and everybody assumes he was born. Docetism holds that His suffering on the cross was a phantasmal being, which is only the appearance of a man. How do you get a nail to hold in ectoplasm?

                          How is the priority of our faith, eternal life in Jesus Christ, deflected at the cross when we see Mary, His mother at the foot of that cross? The one true Protestant Jesus Christ who is one that serves as a suite for the real God. Arianist and smi-Arians nearly won the Battle, but Mary kept getting in the way. Jesus was wholly defined and related to God as the son and had the nature man, sort of. In Arianism and smi-Arianism His human nature was subservient to the divine nature and did not act. Rather it was always the divine nature that acted in Jesus Christ. His substance as such was divisible. The Arianist reduced the Word of God to a demigod with a beginning and end. The Son is homoiousias, the Son is of similar essence as the Father opposed to the Son is homoousias, that is to say the Son is of the same essence as the Father. Arianism, fails in the rise of another heresy, Nestorianism. Nestorianism holds that the baby in Mary's womb had only one nature, divine nature. The logical extension of this heresy is that man is a hypostasis, but not the person without the individual characteristics. Thus Christ has no essence outside of the way the Apostles define His individual traits. Nestorianism then has the Person of Christ defined by the physical body. And the way the battle ensued over the mere title of the "Theotokos" it became clear that without the Mother of God there could be no reality in the Divinity of Christ uniquely and inseperatly joined to man was impossible. Hence both Nestorianism quickly died away with Arianism falling shortly thereafter.

                          In regard to the Christological claim that Christ was one person with only one nature (a magic fusion of human and divine elements) is known as Monophysites The claim holds Christ to be only one nature, that of God. Hence in Greek: mono = one; physis = nature). This philosophy holds that Christ did not have a human nature, that is existing in the physical world as you and I do with common attributes. We think of these common attributes as being born of woman, being bi-pedal, two arms, two eyes, having hair on the head, having the same general cognitive capabilities, etc; any attribute that would allow ourselves to be human. Unless Jesus Christ bears both natures, in equilibrium and unity then it was God that hung on the Cross in a suite of humanity. If He did not take on our human nature in full for the atonement of sin then it was meat and bones hung on the cross and the Divine did not suffer humanity; our humanity is not redeemed.

                          Human flesh is not metastasized in the belly of women; human beings are born of women, from inception to the birth of a new life. That is to say, women carry the seed of flesh to which the spark of life is added by her male counterpart, a process of life ensues and a human child - not a demigod. God prepared the body and soul of the Virgin to be, on earth, a habitation worthy of his only begotten Son, without sin, actual or original. As the Father, God causes the seed to grow with and in His Wisdom. This Child is both God, and human, “and the Logos [Wisdom] was God”

                          The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life', insemination. In humans no genetic material remains with the ovaries (the mother's flesh). The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming from the mother's fleshy cells into a wholly individual rational being within the ovary. The resulting life is indeed the flesh of its mother and human. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within him; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child. Hence, the blood of Christ was the blood of eternal life.

                          This is clearly stated in Luke chapter 1. The Christ Child's life was the personification of God’s Wisdom perfectly joined (incarnate) to the flesh provided by Mary, born of woman human and fathered by God with the Wisdom of God as stated in John 1:1. The blood in the Christ Child is the Blood like all human life emanates from the child Himself, it is not intermingled with the blood of the mother. In order that we might be fully redeemed, body, blood and soul in a union with God as adopted sons and daughters Christ took on two natures uniquely joined in unity, and inseparable to pay for our sins. Consequently, what we say of the second Person of the Trinity we can say of Jesus Christ the man we say of God and vise versa. It was Almighty God who created water thirst as He hung on the Cross for our redemption.

                          Originally posted by JoeT: So, if she wasn't full of Grace, being full of Jesus Christ, then are you saying Jesus Christ is not the Living Grace? If she is full of death, then was Jesus Christ issued out of death? If she wasn't full of the Living Grace, then Jesus Christ wasn't God as well as man? When the fetus of Jesus Christ was in the womb of Mary, was she not "full of Grace"? Was she not full of His Salvation. Was she not full of Eternal Life.
                          Posted by illini1959: by your way of thinking, when she expelled baby Jesus out of her body does that mean all that grace, salvation and eternal life was expelled as well?
                          Just wondering if you were going to address this ^
                          Sure I’m going to answer it. In reality we see Jesus Christ is the personification of grace; He is the personification of Eternal Life. Thus when Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ she brought God’s grace and God’s.

                          In your hallucinatory scenario Mary would have this thing called ‘sin nature’ by Protestants. Grace expels the unholy, thus Christ is ‘expelling this woman’, not the woman expelling the child.

                          JoeT
                          Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                          Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

                            I went and re-read, your post. My mistake. It is true that when we are born again(baptism) we become members of His Church.
                            And you are mistaken by your reply....

                            When we are born again irregardless if there is any baptism, we become members of His church.
                            When Catholics are baptized it means nothing other than being put on the rolls of the Catholic Church, and nothing to do with being members of His church.

                            "Cults use Christian terminology, but redefine terms to suit their own belief and practices."-Dr. Walter Martin

                            Catholicism's doctrines of demons:

                            1TI 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
                            1TI 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Doug View Post

                              And you are mistaken by your reply....

                              When we are born again irregardless if there is any baptism, we become members of His church.
                              When Catholics are baptized it means nothing other than being put on the rolls of the Catholic Church, and nothing to do with being members of His church.
                              We are born again at Baptism. We become members, of His Body, i.e. Christians, at Baptism and not by a statement of belief. Look at the following verses:
                              Romans 6:3
                              3. Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death?

                              He did not say, "who believe in Christ Jesus, believe in His death."

                              1 Cor. 12:13
                              For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink

                              He did not say, "believed into one body.."
                              "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. Pope St. Clement I (88-97)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                                So, every woman you know gave birth to Christ? It's a common thing, right? What do you mean "that's all"? Sure its a name it the name of the Mother of God.

                                JoeT
                                That is why she said.."all generations shall call me blessed"(by God)
                                Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                                Comment

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